steelwill
i was wondering, is the mp4 format the best format for cue. when i record a video mix it records in mp4 format i guess as the default format.
i never touched those settings. i'm starting to loadup on vob files and i don't want to be on the wrong side of things. i can't tell the diffrence, but i would like for all my files to be in the same format. someone told me it's like having numark cue / or virtual dj it depends on your personal prefrence.they are the same. (BUT you don't get the same performance) just wondering, thanks
steel will - '' blazin the ones and twos ''
i never touched those settings. i'm starting to loadup on vob files and i don't want to be on the wrong side of things. i can't tell the diffrence, but i would like for all my files to be in the same format. someone told me it's like having numark cue / or virtual dj it depends on your personal prefrence.they are the same. (BUT you don't get the same performance) just wondering, thanks
steel will - '' blazin the ones and twos ''
Posted Fri 29 Aug 08 @ 10:57 pm
digitalwiz
Seems to me that VOB (mpeg II) are the standard playing format for videos... however, avi loads faster for me that is..
Mp4 do seem to take a little longer loading time than mpeg II. Remember too that mp4 is more compressed than mpeg II.
The decision you make however is your call. Personally I use VOB files.. but as of late.. .I am thinking of going to mp4... since the quality of encoding has improved a lot in recent times... and is comparable to vobs. Secondly the file size is drastically smaller than VOBs which means that a lot more files in terms of hard drive space.
Mp4 do seem to take a little longer loading time than mpeg II. Remember too that mp4 is more compressed than mpeg II.
The decision you make however is your call. Personally I use VOB files.. but as of late.. .I am thinking of going to mp4... since the quality of encoding has improved a lot in recent times... and is comparable to vobs. Secondly the file size is drastically smaller than VOBs which means that a lot more files in terms of hard drive space.
Posted Fri 29 Aug 08 @ 11:19 pm
dj-e-lectric
digitalwiz wrote :
Seems to me that VOB (mpeg II) are the standard playing format for videos... however, avi loads faster for me that is..
Mp4 do seem to take a little longer loading time than mpeg II. Remember too that mp4 is more compressed than mpeg II.
The decision you make however is your call. Personally I use VOB files.. but as of late.. .I am thinking of going to mp4... since the quality of encoding has improved a lot in recent times... and is comparable to vobs. Secondly the file size is drastically smaller than VOBs which means that a lot more files in terms of hard drive space.
Mp4 do seem to take a little longer loading time than mpeg II. Remember too that mp4 is more compressed than mpeg II.
The decision you make however is your call. Personally I use VOB files.. but as of late.. .I am thinking of going to mp4... since the quality of encoding has improved a lot in recent times... and is comparable to vobs. Secondly the file size is drastically smaller than VOBs which means that a lot more files in terms of hard drive space.
mp4 does not mean it is more compressed then mpeg2 (or any format for that matter). mp4 is an "envelope" that contains the video and audio and can be encoded with various codecs and bitrates. mpg2 can also be encoded in compressed bitrates also but the standard seems to be about 7000kbs on the original DVD (although some retail dvds I have found are much more compressed so they can squeeze them on to a single layer DVDs instead of the much more expensive dual layer DVDs). VOB is not an "encoding" method it is the file structure format for recording the disc.
I use mp4 with the ffdshow H/264 codec (the h/264 encoding is THE standard for quicktime, satelitte & cable HD broadcasts, blue ray and HD DVDs and standard DVDs now. Currently it has a maximum resolution of 1920x1280 where as mpg2 is 720x480 in ntsc and 752x520 pal).
On my system this encoder for mp4 works almost as fast as mpeg2 on VDJ. The speed is mostly dependent on the brand of the encoder and/or decoder you use. I am sure a professional H264 codec would probably be faster (maybe) then the free FFDShow h264 codec. You can rip your DVDs to mp4/h264 using the "same quality" setting on your ripper (they may call it something else like "highest quality" or a numeric value of 10) which means it encodes your rips at the SAME bitrate as the original DVD.
In my experience I have found that if you encode an mp4/h264 at around 4000kbs it is the same quality as a 7000kbs mpeg2 but it is almost 1/2 the file size. I came to the 4000kbs setting as I did several tests (500kbs increments from 3000-7000 kbs) by placing the same videos in each player of vdj (one in mp4 and one in mpg2) and paused them on the EXACT SAME FRAME and crossfaded back an forth to see if I could see any changes. As your compression increases when you crossfade back and forth you will notice changes in color saturation, blackness, contrast, brightness, details, compression artifacts and background "blocking". IF you see no shifting (or very insignificant shifting) in these properties then you have a visually identical copy (in my opinion). I did these tests on different genres, color and black & white and ripps from different sources to come to my conclusions and this is for "paused" video....moving video I can barely notice down to 3000kbs (which is where most of the download services seem to be at) and that is mostly in the background blacking on the black shadows and the compression artifacts around hard edges like text.
I realize this is not a "scientific" means of testing, but I don't have a video testing lab and the piece of equipment I will ultimately view the videos with are MY EYES and they aren't lab equipment s(and getting worse every year) so these tests are good enough to satisfy me and certainly any bar customer. All you need to decide is how much loss of detail and addition of artifacts are you willing to put up with to get higher compression and smaller files....that is a matter of personal taste just as is the compression rate and sound from your mp3s is.
Posted Sat 30 Aug 08 @ 7:50 am
steelwill
thanks guys , this is good stuff. i knew i would get a professional opinion (rather than a programmed response i got from nuwmark.) i guess i will continue to drive on in the same direction, being that hard drive space is'nt going to be a problem for a couple of years. i seem to fight more with the jog wheel when i mix two diffrent formats. they won't stay in step as long, and loops are cleaner with vob files,and volume between songs are a lot closer than any other format mixing at low levels(dinner music,happy hour ect..) that's just my opinion. i'm hooked on cue only because i heard about cue first,and i picked it up at the retailer a year ago and was blown away.
- will -
- will -
Posted Sat 30 Aug 08 @ 11:33 am
I like Mp4 because encoding has gotten better, but its also about preference. I like vobs cause they are very clear and places like promo only are only vobs but the downsize is space. Vobs take alot of space but mp4 which are provided by places like 8thwonderpromos.com are great also. the quality is great its not as perfect as vobs but side by side comparison its hard to tell and in a club of drunk people, u are just fine.
Posted Sat 30 Aug 08 @ 4:31 pm
steelwill
thanks, also i cant tell if quality is lost when you convert from vob to mp4, or do you gain quaility when you convert from mp3 to wave. just things i think about when it's slow. i'm doing a wedding reception right now and as of now the wedding party is about 1 hour late. i read these forums all the time, and i must say i learn somthing everyday. keep up the good work fellas,and gal ;)
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 11:00 am
djrenee
steelwill wrote :
thanks, also i cant tell if quality is lost when you convert from vob to mp4, or do you gain quaility when you convert from mp3 to wave. just things i think about when it's slow. i'm doing a wedding reception right now and as of now the wedding party is about 1 hour late. i read these forums all the time, and i must say i learn somthing everyday. keep up the good work fellas,and gal ;)
Yes, quality is lost when you compress files be it video or audio. (Mp4 compresses the file)
Converting an MP3 to a wav would be a waste of space and you would gain nothing in quality. It all starts with .VOB and .Wav and goes downhill from there.
R~
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 11:25 am
digitalwiz
with a Terabyte of vids on my gig machine mainly VOBs and two 300GB drives of unused vids...
Just got a gig.... promoter says.. play alternative.. the gig is two days time. Of course alternative is not the music of the day where I am from.. but now this may turn out to be a regular gig for me more.. (steady flow of incoming that I have been wanting for so long)
But guess what???? Of the terabyte of vids on my system... only 1% of them are alternative.
What a headache.... definitely need the space now.... not wanting to walk with an external drive again.. too much bad luck incidents there.
I definitely will have to go with mp4s as soon as I get a chance. Just gonna have to use a batch converter here. And spend a few days scanning bpms etc and adjusting.
See a very good reason for mp4s now.. regardless of what I think about the quality... of course the quality of the mp4s I think are more than good enough.
Don't be like me *smile*!! CONVERT to MP4 from now....
Just got a gig.... promoter says.. play alternative.. the gig is two days time. Of course alternative is not the music of the day where I am from.. but now this may turn out to be a regular gig for me more.. (steady flow of incoming that I have been wanting for so long)
But guess what???? Of the terabyte of vids on my system... only 1% of them are alternative.
What a headache.... definitely need the space now.... not wanting to walk with an external drive again.. too much bad luck incidents there.
I definitely will have to go with mp4s as soon as I get a chance. Just gonna have to use a batch converter here. And spend a few days scanning bpms etc and adjusting.
See a very good reason for mp4s now.. regardless of what I think about the quality... of course the quality of the mp4s I think are more than good enough.
Don't be like me *smile*!! CONVERT to MP4 from now....
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 12:56 pm
dj-e-lectric
djrenee wrote :
Yes, quality is lost when you compress files be it video or audio. (Mp4 compresses the file)
Converting an MP3 to a wav would be a waste of space and you would gain nothing in quality. It all starts with .VOB and .Wav and goes downhill from there.
R~
steelwill wrote :
thanks, also i cant tell if quality is lost when you convert from vob to mp4, or do you gain quaility when you convert from mp3 to wave. just things i think about when it's slow. i'm doing a wedding reception right now and as of now the wedding party is about 1 hour late. i read these forums all the time, and i must say i learn somthing everyday. keep up the good work fellas,and gal ;)
Yes, quality is lost when you compress files be it video or audio. (Mp4 compresses the file)
Converting an MP3 to a wav would be a waste of space and you would gain nothing in quality. It all starts with .VOB and .Wav and goes downhill from there.
R~
Why does everybody keep passing this mis-information, when ripping content from a DVD, mp4 DOES NOT compress the VIDEO or AUDIO any more or less than any other format unless the person ripping the video and audio sets it to compress it.....same as mpeg2 can be compressed if you choose to.
You cannot compare VOB and WAV. That is like comparing apples to shipping crates. Wav is the actual bit for bit conversion of the digital audio with no compression. A VOB is a container that you convert whatever video (also your audio, titles, subtiltes, etc.) to a format that DVD players/burners can read, but the original video or audio could have been in any format prior to preperation.
If you take a wav file audio and convert it to mp3 128 kbs and a video file originally recorded as a compressed mov file from a digital video cam these BOTH are converted to a VOB to burn to the DVD. Both have been SEVERLY compressed but once prepared for burning they are together as a VOB file. The difference is that many of the codecs that mp4 allows (such as h264 video and AAC audio) will compress to MUCH SMALLER files sizes with MUCH BETTER quality than the mpeg2 codecs.
MP4 is NOT a compression type by itself, it is simply a holder for the video it has NOTHING to do with what codecs are inside (other than the allowable ones per the MPEG-4 specifications) or how you encode/decode the contents. Look at it this way, if you have a cookie jar you can put WHATEVER cookies you want in that jar, whatever size you roll out the dough determines how big or how small the finished cookies are that you put in the jar.
VOB is also a container with the standard video object stream being mpeg2...but that does not mean that just because it is a vob file it was not compressed BEFORE it was put on the DVD. When you rip it you can still compress it if you choose whether you rip to mpeg2 or mp4 or avi or divx or wmv or whatever your format of chioce. VOB is just the required structure needed to write to the DVD, but the file format and compression used PRIOR to converting it to burn is again up to the person preparing the files.
for more info on what a VOB actually is go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VOB
for more info on mpeg4 (mp4) go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_14
for more info on mpeg2 (mpg) go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpeg2_video
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 2:15 pm
dj-e-lectric
digitalwiz wrote :
with a Terabyte of vids on my gig machine mainly VOBs and two 300GB drives of unused vids...
Just got a gig.... promoter says.. play alternative.. the gig is two days time. Of course alternative is not the music of the day where I am from.. but now this may turn out to be a regular gig for me more.. (steady flow of incoming that I have been wanting for so long)
But guess what???? Of the terabyte of vids on my system... only 1% of them are alternative.
What a headache.... definitely need the space now.... not wanting to walk with an external drive again.. too much bad luck incidents there.
I definitely will have to go with mp4s as soon as I get a chance. Just gonna have to use a batch converter here. And spend a few days scanning bpms etc and adjusting.
See a very good reason for mp4s now.. regardless of what I think about the quality... of course the quality of the mp4s I think are more than good enough.
Don't be like me *smile*!! CONVERT to MP4 from now....
Just got a gig.... promoter says.. play alternative.. the gig is two days time. Of course alternative is not the music of the day where I am from.. but now this may turn out to be a regular gig for me more.. (steady flow of incoming that I have been wanting for so long)
But guess what???? Of the terabyte of vids on my system... only 1% of them are alternative.
What a headache.... definitely need the space now.... not wanting to walk with an external drive again.. too much bad luck incidents there.
I definitely will have to go with mp4s as soon as I get a chance. Just gonna have to use a batch converter here. And spend a few days scanning bpms etc and adjusting.
See a very good reason for mp4s now.. regardless of what I think about the quality... of course the quality of the mp4s I think are more than good enough.
Don't be like me *smile*!! CONVERT to MP4 from now....
I have done a lot of testing with the h264 compression for mp4. I have come to the conclusion that compressing the video at about 4000kbs for the video and the audio at 256kbs AAC produced EXACTLY (to the naked eye) the same quality as the original dvd being ripped. The file size will be about 50% to 70% of the original. I have actually taken it as low as 2400kbs video and 128kbs AAC audio and NO ONE in the bar (not even other Djs that are there on their night off) can tell the difference whan the videos are playing...this will take you down to a file size smaller than 1/3 the original....I can never get a straight answer but I think most of the download services are compressing to 2400-3000kbs.
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 2:24 pm
Andrew87
dj-e-lectric wrote :
Why does everybody keep passing this mis-information, when ripping content from a DVD, mp4 DOES NOT compress the VIDEO or AUDIO any more or less than any other format unless the person ripping the video and audio sets it to compress it.....same as mpeg2 can be compressed if you choose to.
When most people say MP4 they are referring to H.264 and AAC which is a standardised format. There is no need to get worked up over this, not everyone really cares about the technical specifications or has a use for it. Although there is nothing wrong with what you have said, you have to wonder whether the average person would understand it? The market is full of misinformation particularly regarding HD but it doesn't matter...
But MP4 considering the quality of the H.264 and AAC codecs do manage better compression than MPEG2 and MP2/AC3 which is common in VOBs, i.e. a 2000kbps MP4 may be comparable to a 4000kbps VOB.
The main thing people need to know when going from VOB to MP4 is that there will be a quality loss but there is a point where the difference probably won't be perceivable to most human eyes and ears. The contributors of this thread have helpfully suggested this is about 4000kbps for the video segment and 256kbps for the audio. The other point to mention is that you will not be able to achieve better quality than your source material.
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 2:41 pm
bagpuss
Most of my videos are MP4 and most look great on the 32" screen I view them on.
I will be unleashing this thing on very big screens soon, and I'm a bit worried that a 60mb MP4 file will fall apart when displayed at such a scale.
Only time will tell though..
The benefit of MP4 has to be smaller file sizes, but at what point is a file too small to compare to VOB?
I'm of the breed that only settles for maximum quality when it comes to audio, and I want my videos to be very close if not identical to their original DVD/VOB source.
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 5:07 pm
Andrew87
There is a formula you can use to help determine what bitrate to encode at. Also all encodings should be made using 2 passes with advanced x264 options enabled via the higher profiles, however, this requires a lot of juice to decode and manipulating a vob is for sure a lot faster.
0.3 bits per pixel is usually accepted as good quality:
Horizontal Resolution * Vertical Resolution * Frames Per Second * Bits Per Pixel / 1024 = Video Bitrate
A PAL DVD therefore would be (not taking into account aspect ratio or cropping):
720 * 576 * 25 * 0.3 / 1024 = 3038kbps
There are even ways to determine the bitrate at which point you have exceeded the theoretical maximum the codec can give you for a source. However, unless you need a guaranteed filesize every time it's better to do your encoding quality based rather than bitrate based. This way your videos will always maintain the same quality as what may be good enough for a source at 2000kbps may be unacceptable for another. Another benefit of the quality method is it only requires one pass so is faster to encode.
0.3 bits per pixel is usually accepted as good quality:
Horizontal Resolution * Vertical Resolution * Frames Per Second * Bits Per Pixel / 1024 = Video Bitrate
A PAL DVD therefore would be (not taking into account aspect ratio or cropping):
720 * 576 * 25 * 0.3 / 1024 = 3038kbps
There are even ways to determine the bitrate at which point you have exceeded the theoretical maximum the codec can give you for a source. However, unless you need a guaranteed filesize every time it's better to do your encoding quality based rather than bitrate based. This way your videos will always maintain the same quality as what may be good enough for a source at 2000kbps may be unacceptable for another. Another benefit of the quality method is it only requires one pass so is faster to encode.
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 5:23 pm
bagpuss
Using those settings Andrew, what does your average 3-4 minute video look like? (in terms of file size).
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 5:27 pm
djrenee
Also Andrew, what software do you use that's supports x264? Mine only appear to support H264.
Is there a big difference?
Is there a big difference?
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 7:06 pm
dj-e-lectric
djrenee wrote :
Also Andrew, what software do you use that's supports x264? Mine only appear to support H264.
Is there a big difference?
Is there a big difference?
x264 is the (usually) free open source "tool" that allows you to encode/decode the H264 specification. FFDShow has a very good free h264 codec and IMToo DVD Ripper Platinum is a great ripper for H264 as well as many other formats (a little slow but very configurable and very easy to use with a lot of preset options if you don't want to configure it yourself)
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 7:43 pm
Andrew87
I don't have any music videos, but I'm doing some encodes of a 5 minute sample from a movie which I'll post in the Experienced users forum once it's all done and uploaded. One of the encodes is using roughly the 0.3 bits per pixel bitrate which works out about 2100kbps for a 688x416 file (87.5MB with 192kbps audio).
X.264 is a free implementation of H.264, like XviD and DivX. They are both compatible. FFMpeg is generally used to make X.264 files and is used by many (if not all) free programs. I don't know what the tuning options are like for your H.264 program, but with FFMpeg (also Mencoder) you can heavily customize your encoding to tweak quality and performance. However, if using equal settings I think the quality should be just about the same. The downside is that these are commandline programs. I've written my own interface for automated conversion but this probably won't be good for vob sources which may need cropping and deinterlacing. For an all in one tool you can check out MeGUI although it probably isn't as elegant as your current solution as every conversion needs manual adjustment rather than just dragging in a group of videos and clicking convert.
X.264 is a free implementation of H.264, like XviD and DivX. They are both compatible. FFMpeg is generally used to make X.264 files and is used by many (if not all) free programs. I don't know what the tuning options are like for your H.264 program, but with FFMpeg (also Mencoder) you can heavily customize your encoding to tweak quality and performance. However, if using equal settings I think the quality should be just about the same. The downside is that these are commandline programs. I've written my own interface for automated conversion but this probably won't be good for vob sources which may need cropping and deinterlacing. For an all in one tool you can check out MeGUI although it probably isn't as elegant as your current solution as every conversion needs manual adjustment rather than just dragging in a group of videos and clicking convert.
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 7:47 pm
djrenee
My question was answered but I can't DELETE this response!
What happened to the DELETE button!.. (Within my 15 minute BEAT the clock thing)
What happened to the DELETE button!.. (Within my 15 minute BEAT the clock thing)
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 7:50 pm
dj-e-lectric
Andrew87 wrote :
There is no need to get worked up over this, not everyone really cares about the technical specifications or has a use for it. Although there is nothing wrong with what you have said, you have to wonder whether the average person would understand it? The market is full of misinformation particularly regarding HD but it doesn't matter...
There is no need to get worked up over this, not everyone really cares about the technical specifications or has a use for it. Although there is nothing wrong with what you have said, you have to wonder whether the average person would understand it? The market is full of misinformation particularly regarding HD but it doesn't matter...
Don't really mean to get worked up about it but just because the market is "full" of misinformation doesn't mean we can't help straighten it out for those just learning about it.....
Andrew87 wrote :
The main thing people need to know when going from VOB to MP4 is that there will be a quality loss
That's just it, everybody keeps saying there is a quality loss, but there isn't if you rip at the "same quality setting". Then it DOES NOT compress any further, it just transcodes the format from mpeg2 to h264 bit for bit. The only quality loss comes in to play if you CHOOSE to compress the H264 when you rip...that's what needs to be understood.
Not shouting here, just trying to get the understanding right and clear it up for those not that experienced in it.
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 7:54 pm
djrenee
"The only quality loss comes in to play if you CHOOSE to compress the H264 when you rip...that's what needs to be understood".
Ok I now understand what you are saying, I just figure anyone who's going to bother with converting to H264 would be doing so for the purpose of compressing the file to save space, why bother otherwise.
But I see what you are saying and you are a damn lot smarter than me in this stuff.
Ok I now understand what you are saying, I just figure anyone who's going to bother with converting to H264 would be doing so for the purpose of compressing the file to save space, why bother otherwise.
But I see what you are saying and you are a damn lot smarter than me in this stuff.
Posted Sun 31 Aug 08 @ 8:01 pm
