pungent
Friday night set my master volume on the screen to halfway and ran through my own powered speaker set up and worked well. No big differences in volume between songs etc and played a variety of commercial- r&b and managed about 1 1/2 hours of electro. Didn't seem to be pushing the speakers anywhere near as hard to get good volume.
Saturday night done a wedding with my gear as well but left screen volume full knowing I wasn't going to be playing real loud. Got the big variation of volume again between songs and some of the old songs like elvis-chubby checker etc really had to turn it up to get the equal volume of the newer stuff and I could tell VDJ was starting to pull it back. Was a smallish venue and my system should have been doing it easy.
Is it just me or does all this seem like a lot of hassle to get good (not excellent) sound.
If the DDJ-SR is supported by VDJ8 as plug and play and VDJ8 takes full control of the SR soundcard shouldn't the SR have full control over volume of VDJ8. Changing Db I except as basic setup but having to adjust the screen volume I can't see why the controller doesn't do it and it won't let me remap to do it. Even then anything over half volume on screen will start the VDJ8 limiter on some songs so that won't help anyway.
Maybe I'm expecting too much or not fully understanding everything.
Saturday night done a wedding with my gear as well but left screen volume full knowing I wasn't going to be playing real loud. Got the big variation of volume again between songs and some of the old songs like elvis-chubby checker etc really had to turn it up to get the equal volume of the newer stuff and I could tell VDJ was starting to pull it back. Was a smallish venue and my system should have been doing it easy.
Is it just me or does all this seem like a lot of hassle to get good (not excellent) sound.
If the DDJ-SR is supported by VDJ8 as plug and play and VDJ8 takes full control of the SR soundcard shouldn't the SR have full control over volume of VDJ8. Changing Db I except as basic setup but having to adjust the screen volume I can't see why the controller doesn't do it and it won't let me remap to do it. Even then anything over half volume on screen will start the VDJ8 limiter on some songs so that won't help anyway.
Maybe I'm expecting too much or not fully understanding everything.
Posted Sat 28 Feb 15 @ 9:28 am
wickedmix
here is some articles about gain staging that may help you out if your going to be connecting to many different systems you will need to understand this stuff unless the venues have a sound engineer available to set you up and manage the systems.
http://www.digitaldjtips.com/2011/09/a-practical-guide-to-volume-settings-for-djs/
http://www.rane.com/note135.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr98/articles/gainstructure.html
good luck.
http://www.digitaldjtips.com/2011/09/a-practical-guide-to-volume-settings-for-djs/
http://www.rane.com/note135.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr98/articles/gainstructure.html
good luck.
Posted Sat 28 Feb 15 @ 9:45 am
wickedmix
@krn3ki are you sure your source files aren't already too loud above zerodb and vdj has to lower them to eliminate clipping? don't assume your mp3s aren't too loud to start with i doubt winamp will adjust to compensate for it where vdj will....
if you want to check if you files are clipping or recorded too loud u can use this tool to analyze them mp3gain -> http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/
anyways remember louder isn't always better.
if you want to check if you files are clipping or recorded too loud u can use this tool to analyze them mp3gain -> http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/
anyways remember louder isn't always better.
Posted Sat 28 Feb 15 @ 9:53 am
groovindj
pungent wrote :
some of the old songs like elvis-chubby checker etc really had to turn it up
This is because tracks today have huge amounts of dynamic range reduction applied to them, compared to older tracks. Back then, the mastering was much more natural, with tracks actually having a life-like dynamic range (difference between loud and quiet parts).
See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
Because of this, switching between new and old will inevitably mean that the average volume of the old tracks will be lower.
What you can do is to either spend time remastering those old tracks that you commonly play, bringing them up to todays OTT compression levels and raising the average volume of them - or you could install an FX plugin that you could enable when playing an old track, that would perform the process live as the track plays.
Do this experiment:- Install loudmax and enable it on the left deck. Play an old track (one that you can remember having trouble with) and while it's playing through loudmax, lower the 'threshold' knob - which should have the desired effect. :-)
[edit] if you want a pro "maximizer" then Waves L2 is on offer at the moment http://www.waves.com/plugins/l2-ultramaximizer
Posted Sat 28 Feb 15 @ 10:02 am
krn3ki
wickedmix wrote :
@krn3ki are you sure your source files aren't already too loud above zerodb and vdj has to lower them to eliminate clipping? don't assume your mp3s aren't too loud to start with i doubt winamp will adjust to compensate for it where vdj will....
if you want to check if you files are clipping or recorded too loud u can use this tool to analyze them mp3gain -> http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/
anyways remember louder isn't always better.
if you want to check if you files are clipping or recorded too loud u can use this tool to analyze them mp3gain -> http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/
anyways remember louder isn't always better.
Of course classic audio software such as Winamp or iTunes won't touch mp3's at all but instead will output them exactly as they were recorded. As I said, I mainly play progressive and bigroom, not some weird xy music. Are you trying to tell me that Hardwell, Deadmau5, Armin van Buuren, Avicii, Tiesto, Nicky Romero, Martin Garrix, DV & LM, David Guetta, Calvin Harris and others including most popular labels don't know shit about mastering and are thus sending too loud mp3's to Beatport and iTunes? I sincerely doubt about that.
Below average output audio level is probably not a problem on live gigs where you can amplify it, but that's not the case while recording mixtapes.
Posted Sat 28 Feb 15 @ 10:12 am
wickedmix
krn3ki wrote :
Of course classic audio software such as Winamp or iTunes won't touch mp3's at all but instead will output them exactly as they were recorded. As I said, I mainly play progressive and bigroom, not some weird xy music. Are you trying to tell me that Hardwell, Deadmau5, Armin van Buuren, Avicii, Tiesto, Nicky Romero, Martin Garrix, DV & LM, David Guetta, Calvin Harris and others including most popular labels don't know shit about mastering and are thus sending too loud mp3's to Beatport and iTunes? I sincerely doubt about that.
Below average output audio level is probably not a problem on live gigs where you can amplify it, but that's not the case while recording mixtapes.
wickedmix wrote :
@krn3ki are you sure your source files aren't already too loud above zerodb and vdj has to lower them to eliminate clipping? don't assume your mp3s aren't too loud to start with i doubt winamp will adjust to compensate for it where vdj will....
if you want to check if you files are clipping or recorded too loud u can use this tool to analyze them mp3gain -> http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/
anyways remember louder isn't always better.
if you want to check if you files are clipping or recorded too loud u can use this tool to analyze them mp3gain -> http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/
anyways remember louder isn't always better.
Of course classic audio software such as Winamp or iTunes won't touch mp3's at all but instead will output them exactly as they were recorded. As I said, I mainly play progressive and bigroom, not some weird xy music. Are you trying to tell me that Hardwell, Deadmau5, Armin van Buuren, Avicii, Tiesto, Nicky Romero, Martin Garrix, DV & LM, David Guetta, Calvin Harris and others including most popular labels don't know shit about mastering and are thus sending too loud mp3's to Beatport and iTunes? I sincerely doubt about that.
Below average output audio level is probably not a problem on live gigs where you can amplify it, but that's not the case while recording mixtapes.
yes that's exactly what i am telling you :-)
have a look at the clips column these are new releases in your style
Posted Sat 28 Feb 15 @ 11:18 am
pungent
Ill try installing loudmax and see how I go.
Obviously old songs are going to be less sound quality its just the fact that VDJ8 picks it up so much worse when screen volume is on full then when its on half.
As mentioned above even some of the new release songs have bad audio. For example Maria careys song beautiful. Such a huge artist and that song sounds terrible no matter what settings your mixer is on.
Obviously old songs are going to be less sound quality its just the fact that VDJ8 picks it up so much worse when screen volume is on full then when its on half.
As mentioned above even some of the new release songs have bad audio. For example Maria careys song beautiful. Such a huge artist and that song sounds terrible no matter what settings your mixer is on.
Posted Sat 28 Feb 15 @ 4:13 pm
pungent
Downloaded loudmax and installed in my VDJ plug in folder but VDJ don't seem to be recognizing it is there.....tried reinstalling a couple of times and also shutting VDJ and computer down a couple of times.
What I have now worked out about my original sound issue.after a fair amount of searching, reading and experimenting.
There are 3 limiters in VDJ8 😕
My skin has a limiter notification next to my master out meters.
My DDJ-SR has a switch to go between master out and individual channel metres.
My issue is my channel limiter is the one that is coming on even though i only have minimal sound coming out of my master to the speakers and speakers are not working hard.
I have my auto gain turned off so my 0db setting is irrelevant.
So even though my speakers are working at low volume VDJ8 is still limiting and pulling sound at low volumes due to channel limiter.
I have worked out having my gains about -2 keeps majority of songs from channel limiting. Some older songs you can use well into the ++ gain.
When the channel metres start to go into the red the limiter starts showing a % figure. Once it hits about 50% is when the limiter is enabled by VDJ.
So I now have 3 VDJ8 limiters to worry about as well as the powered speaker settings and limiters on my own gear and venue gear and the DBX controller limiter at another venue.
All this monitoring so many sound variables and also trying to watch the dance floor reactions, picking the correct music and also mixing the songs......after a five hour set I'm now going to be a mental wreck.
Wish I could just go back to living with a few sound issues and not knowing why.😩😩😩😩
Sorry for so much info but this is a bit of a reference for myself to follow and fall back on and hopefully helps others with issues head in the correct direction.
What I have now worked out about my original sound issue.after a fair amount of searching, reading and experimenting.
There are 3 limiters in VDJ8 😕
My skin has a limiter notification next to my master out meters.
My DDJ-SR has a switch to go between master out and individual channel metres.
My issue is my channel limiter is the one that is coming on even though i only have minimal sound coming out of my master to the speakers and speakers are not working hard.
I have my auto gain turned off so my 0db setting is irrelevant.
So even though my speakers are working at low volume VDJ8 is still limiting and pulling sound at low volumes due to channel limiter.
I have worked out having my gains about -2 keeps majority of songs from channel limiting. Some older songs you can use well into the ++ gain.
When the channel metres start to go into the red the limiter starts showing a % figure. Once it hits about 50% is when the limiter is enabled by VDJ.
So I now have 3 VDJ8 limiters to worry about as well as the powered speaker settings and limiters on my own gear and venue gear and the DBX controller limiter at another venue.
All this monitoring so many sound variables and also trying to watch the dance floor reactions, picking the correct music and also mixing the songs......after a five hour set I'm now going to be a mental wreck.
Wish I could just go back to living with a few sound issues and not knowing why.😩😩😩😩
Sorry for so much info but this is a bit of a reference for myself to follow and fall back on and hopefully helps others with issues head in the correct direction.
Posted Sun 01 Mar 15 @ 6:46 am
groovindj
Did you put loudmax in the /Plugins/SoundEffect folder?
As for levels, IMO part of being a DJ is keeping an eye on meters as you're playing to make sure your levels are correct, and adjusting if they're not.
Computer DJ software has made some things easier for DJs, what with auto this and auto that, but it's best not to rely on the computer too much. Do it the old way!
:-)
As for levels, IMO part of being a DJ is keeping an eye on meters as you're playing to make sure your levels are correct, and adjusting if they're not.
Computer DJ software has made some things easier for DJs, what with auto this and auto that, but it's best not to rely on the computer too much. Do it the old way!
:-)
Posted Sun 01 Mar 15 @ 7:14 am
wickedmix
@pungent
make sure you get the 32 bit loudmax
make sure you get the 32 bit loudmax
Posted Sun 01 Mar 15 @ 7:31 am
pungent
Yep downloaded 64 lol.
Got 32 and all good.
Set it up so I can run loudmax constantly on both channels the entire set. Stopped the VDJ limiter coming on at all and with a quick play around didn't seem to be able to hit the loudmax limiter at all.
Thanks for the help everyone. Got a plug in job at a venue friday night where I have been noticing the issue through the night so fingers crossed all works well now.
Got 32 and all good.
Set it up so I can run loudmax constantly on both channels the entire set. Stopped the VDJ limiter coming on at all and with a quick play around didn't seem to be able to hit the loudmax limiter at all.
Thanks for the help everyone. Got a plug in job at a venue friday night where I have been noticing the issue through the night so fingers crossed all works well now.
Posted Mon 02 Mar 15 @ 6:03 am
groovindj
Loudmax can limit without sounding as flaming obvious as the VDJ limiter, so it's a better choice.
IWBNI Atomix could license loudmax from Thomas Mundt, or at least make an effort to improve the built in one.
IWBNI Atomix could license loudmax from Thomas Mundt, or at least make an effort to improve the built in one.
Posted Mon 02 Mar 15 @ 6:10 am
PhantomDeejay
I have personally said 100 times that a limiter is a limiter. It's not a compressor! (despite the fact that they use the same principals in order to work)
Groovin you are too techical knowledged to know the difference between a limiter and a compressor!
Yes, VirtualDj uses a brickwall limiter just in order to avoid distortion if you overdo it with your gains. It does not mess with your tracks dynamics unless it has too.
If you want an overal louder ouput from your soundcard/console you can use a compressor or compressor/limiter on the master channel. That can give you higher RMS volume, but as you allready know it will also alter the dynamics of your tracks and your mix :)
PS: If someone REALLY wants to use a compressor on the master channel I would recommend to use a multi-band compressor as they tend to sound better during the mix of tracks since they compress each band individually... This way you won't burry the vocals of one track just because the other track has too much bass...
Groovin you are too techical knowledged to know the difference between a limiter and a compressor!
Yes, VirtualDj uses a brickwall limiter just in order to avoid distortion if you overdo it with your gains. It does not mess with your tracks dynamics unless it has too.
If you want an overal louder ouput from your soundcard/console you can use a compressor or compressor/limiter on the master channel. That can give you higher RMS volume, but as you allready know it will also alter the dynamics of your tracks and your mix :)
PS: If someone REALLY wants to use a compressor on the master channel I would recommend to use a multi-band compressor as they tend to sound better during the mix of tracks since they compress each band individually... This way you won't burry the vocals of one track just because the other track has too much bass...
Posted Mon 02 Mar 15 @ 7:24 am
groovindj
George, have you actually tried loudmax?
It's really very obvious that the way it limits is so much more subtle than the VDJ limiter.
Just look at the amount of posts from people complaining about the VDJ 8 limiter, since 8 was released. Yes it's OK to have a limiter there for protection, but the results from the VDJ one are not pleasant to the ear. VDJ 8 users just want a limiter that doesn't spoil the output sound as much.
It's really very obvious that the way it limits is so much more subtle than the VDJ limiter.
Just look at the amount of posts from people complaining about the VDJ 8 limiter, since 8 was released. Yes it's OK to have a limiter there for protection, but the results from the VDJ one are not pleasant to the ear. VDJ 8 users just want a limiter that doesn't spoil the output sound as much.
Posted Mon 02 Mar 15 @ 7:47 am
PhantomDeejay
As for the OP:
VirtualDj 8 applies limiting on the following paths:
1) On each deck separately
2) On master output
If any of these limiters kicks in your skin indicator will turn on.
How's gain applied and what various "auto-gain" settings do:
1) Disabled:
VirtualDj won't apply any gain at your track. This means that older tracks will play fine, but most likely you will get the limiter kick in here & there on newer tracks since they are recorded on such a way that they produce distortion/clipping on the digital domain (see loudness wars mentioned above). Yes, studios these days produce masters that will make a DAW clip half of the time. It's not a secret :)
Also with auto-gain disabled the "RMS" volume difference between old and new tracks will be greater. (RMS Volume is somehow what your ear understands as the overal volume of a track)
Finally you won't have ANY headroom in order to tweak your EQ on the positive side, especially on new songs. That's because they are allready maximized/overcompressed and they have no room for you to boost the highs or the mids (or worst the bass) without clipping constantly. And in VirtualDj 8 the limiter will kick in to avoid clipping.
2) Auto-Gain
It's a solution where all tracks are analyzed and a suitable gain is applied in order to achieve a "maximum" RMS volume that can be set in settings.
The zeroDB setting mentioned several times is just the target of auto-gain. 1 means that VirtualDj targets 0db on the soundcard (which is always the maximum it can produce without distortion)
The actual formula used in VirtualDJ to compute the volume is to do an RMS (= Root Mean Square) on 11.6 ms windows
(mathematically speaking that means the square root of the sum over 512 samples of the square of the mono signal, divided by 512), and smooth it on a shifting square window of length 64. The volume is the median of the results.
Setting the value lower than 1 will lower the targeted output volume. 0.75 is -3db and this should be suficient to not get the limiter kicking in on most tracks. Also it will leave you with some headroom to adjust your EQ on positive values if you need to.
Setting it even lower if you have a powerfull PA system is even better, but for most uses a value between 0.65 and 0.75 is sufficient enough.
3) Auto+Remember.
This setting will do whatever "Auto" does but it has an extra function which if not taken care it can actually cause more sound issues than it solves:
It remembers the gain applied on your track the last time you used it. In theory that's a good thing. However, if you "forget" a gain setting on a track too high (because you were mixing the outro) the next you load the song you may end up with too much gain until you remember to lower it to proper levels.
VirtualDj 8 applies limiting on the following paths:
1) On each deck separately
2) On master output
If any of these limiters kicks in your skin indicator will turn on.
How's gain applied and what various "auto-gain" settings do:
1) Disabled:
VirtualDj won't apply any gain at your track. This means that older tracks will play fine, but most likely you will get the limiter kick in here & there on newer tracks since they are recorded on such a way that they produce distortion/clipping on the digital domain (see loudness wars mentioned above). Yes, studios these days produce masters that will make a DAW clip half of the time. It's not a secret :)
Also with auto-gain disabled the "RMS" volume difference between old and new tracks will be greater. (RMS Volume is somehow what your ear understands as the overal volume of a track)
Finally you won't have ANY headroom in order to tweak your EQ on the positive side, especially on new songs. That's because they are allready maximized/overcompressed and they have no room for you to boost the highs or the mids (or worst the bass) without clipping constantly. And in VirtualDj 8 the limiter will kick in to avoid clipping.
2) Auto-Gain
It's a solution where all tracks are analyzed and a suitable gain is applied in order to achieve a "maximum" RMS volume that can be set in settings.
The zeroDB setting mentioned several times is just the target of auto-gain. 1 means that VirtualDj targets 0db on the soundcard (which is always the maximum it can produce without distortion)
The actual formula used in VirtualDJ to compute the volume is to do an RMS (= Root Mean Square) on 11.6 ms windows
(mathematically speaking that means the square root of the sum over 512 samples of the square of the mono signal, divided by 512), and smooth it on a shifting square window of length 64. The volume is the median of the results.
Setting the value lower than 1 will lower the targeted output volume. 0.75 is -3db and this should be suficient to not get the limiter kicking in on most tracks. Also it will leave you with some headroom to adjust your EQ on positive values if you need to.
Setting it even lower if you have a powerfull PA system is even better, but for most uses a value between 0.65 and 0.75 is sufficient enough.
3) Auto+Remember.
This setting will do whatever "Auto" does but it has an extra function which if not taken care it can actually cause more sound issues than it solves:
It remembers the gain applied on your track the last time you used it. In theory that's a good thing. However, if you "forget" a gain setting on a track too high (because you were mixing the outro) the next you load the song you may end up with too much gain until you remember to lower it to proper levels.
Posted Mon 02 Mar 15 @ 7:52 am
PhantomDeejay
groovindj wrote :
George, have you actually tried loudmax?
It's really very obvious that the way it limits is so much more subtle than the VDJ limiter.
Just look at the amount of posts from people complaining about the VDJ 8 limiter, since 8 was released. Yes it's OK to have a limiter there for protection, but the results from the VDJ one are not pleasant to the ear. VDJ 8 users just want a limiter that doesn't spoil the output sound as much.
It's really very obvious that the way it limits is so much more subtle than the VDJ limiter.
Just look at the amount of posts from people complaining about the VDJ 8 limiter, since 8 was released. Yes it's OK to have a limiter there for protection, but the results from the VDJ one are not pleasant to the ear. VDJ 8 users just want a limiter that doesn't spoil the output sound as much.
I haven't tried loudmax.
But I'm working with compressors and limiters and such for more than 15 years!
So there are 2 ways to do it:
1) Start "compressing" gently from -5 db, get more compression at -3 db, even more compression at -1db, brickwall limiter at 0db
2) Brickwall limiter at 0db
Obviously VirtualDj uses the second approach.
The first one will alter your dynamics.
The reason VirtualDj uses the second approach is that you shouldn't go after the 0db mark anyways.
Perhaps the addition of a native compressor would stop some of the whining, but it should be clear enough that it's a COMPRESSOR.
And also it should be clear enough to everyone that you can't have a "soft-knee" limiter without a compressor that alters your tracks dynamics.
Anyway, I don't mean to argue over dynamic processors. I just mean to explain why it's there and why it works the way it does...
Posted Mon 02 Mar 15 @ 7:59 am
groovindj
My suggestion to Mr Pungent of loudmax is for the simple reason that it's easy to use. Just adjust the threshold and the results can be heard.
In comparison, a compressor can be harder to understand and to adjust - especially for those who just need a quick fix for the problem. On a compressor, it's not just threshold, but ratio, attack, release (maybe more too). Not so easy to set for a quick result.
Plus, most of these modern productions use a "loudness maximizer" during mastering, so that is the sound people are used to......and that's the sound which comes from using loudmax. :-)
In comparison, a compressor can be harder to understand and to adjust - especially for those who just need a quick fix for the problem. On a compressor, it's not just threshold, but ratio, attack, release (maybe more too). Not so easy to set for a quick result.
Plus, most of these modern productions use a "loudness maximizer" during mastering, so that is the sound people are used to......and that's the sound which comes from using loudmax. :-)
Posted Mon 02 Mar 15 @ 8:23 am
pungent
So I have been using loudmax and also gone back to auto gain and set it at 7 and seems to have fixed my main original issues.
My only issue now with all these settings mainly at one venue I just can not get loud enough.
Last night I went back to 1 for the auto gain and maxed loud max out and had all volumes on full.
speakers were not any where near there peak. System was loud but just not loud enough.
Im really starting to think this is all coming back to my sound card in the SR and its settings maybe but there is nothing in VDJ8 to change settings for volume in midi......any ideas.
My only issue now with all these settings mainly at one venue I just can not get loud enough.
Last night I went back to 1 for the auto gain and maxed loud max out and had all volumes on full.
speakers were not any where near there peak. System was loud but just not loud enough.
Im really starting to think this is all coming back to my sound card in the SR and its settings maybe but there is nothing in VDJ8 to change settings for volume in midi......any ideas.
Posted Fri 27 Mar 15 @ 9:35 pm
wickedmix
@pungent
most professional designed sound system will not let u over drive the speakers no matter how much output you have so i doubt what u want can be achieved by changing sound cards .... ask the venue to turn up the master volumes on their amps might get u more output.... other then that no matter what u put in at zerodb u will never get more out otherwise
zerodb will always be the same volume wise no matter what card u have don't waste you money there :-)
most professional designed sound system will not let u over drive the speakers no matter how much output you have so i doubt what u want can be achieved by changing sound cards .... ask the venue to turn up the master volumes on their amps might get u more output.... other then that no matter what u put in at zerodb u will never get more out otherwise
zerodb will always be the same volume wise no matter what card u have don't waste you money there :-)
Posted Sat 28 Mar 15 @ 8:13 am
pungent
No other DJ have an issue at the same venue and neither did I with the ergo.
Was thinking I might try and run sound straight from my laptop next time and see what happens.
This is seriously driving me crazy 😕😕
Was thinking I might try and run sound straight from my laptop next time and see what happens.
This is seriously driving me crazy 😕😕
Posted Sun 29 Mar 15 @ 6:08 pm
