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Forum: VirtualDJ Technical Support

Topic: Z2 Mapping updated for native support
In its latest update, Serato added native support for the Traktor Z2, which is a 13-year-old mixer.

I find Serato's mapping better thought out than that offered by Virtual DJ for this mixer. Particularly regarding the pad section with support for stems (+ stems FX), etc.

I myself had to create a custom mapping to fill these gaps for my Z2 under VDJ.

So the question is:

Can we expect the development team to update the Z2's mapping with a more complete mapping, such as support for stems + stems FX on the pads, and possibly enabling fader echo mode (ducking echo), which could, for example, be assigned to shift + pfl A/B for each deck (or shift + FX On) so that this is natively supported for all users without having to create a custom mapping?
 
Posted 4 days ago @ 11:32 am
Just a small comment here:


  • Serato's mapping came just recently, while VirtualDJ's mapping came almost a full 10 years ago
  • DJ based AI Stems were not a thing when VirtualDJ's mapping came out
  • (not sure have to check but) Traktor's own Z2 mapping when it came out had no provisions for stems, etc either.


Given these points, it's a bit unfair to say the mapping is better thought out given the time difference and functionalities available.

The devs can probably look into retrofitting mappings for such into the factory default mapping, provided it doesn't conflict with existing mappings, but also remember, one can probably say this for any controller that was mapped pre-the stems era (if Serato decides to map it with more of the functionality available), and potentially changing the mappings for all controllers in this category (pre-stems) is a daunting task (that's why user MIDI mapping was made available in the first place).
 
DJ VinylTouch wrote :
Just a small comment here:


  • Serato's mapping came just recently, while VirtualDJ's mapping came almost a full 10 years ago
  • DJ based AI Stems were not a thing when VirtualDJ's mapping came out
  • (not sure have to check but) Traktor's own Z2 mapping when it came out had no provisions for stems, etc either.


Given these points, it's a bit unfair to say the mapping is better thought out given the time difference and functionalities available.

The devs can probably look into retrofitting mappings for such into the factory default mapping, provided it doesn't conflict with existing mappings, but also remember, one can probably say this for any controller that was mapped pre-the stems era (if Serato decides to map it with more of the functionality available), and potentially changing the mappings for all controllers in this category (pre-stems) is a daunting task (that's why user MIDI mapping was made available in the first place).


I'm well aware of the points you raise here and that the Z2 mapping dates back to a time before stems even existed.

I don't see anything wrong with my request here.
I'm just wondering if a native mapping update is possible so that all Z2 owners can benefit from the latest features without having to start custom mapping by spending hours and hours scripting each function like I did.
 
Yep I'm not saying anything is wrong with the request (I own the Z2 as well and was pleasantly surprised by what Serato did for the mappings).

What I'm saying is that they did what they could at the time they mapped it
and if you look at this request at scale (other users of other controllers that Serato may look to map, which could pretty much include all Rekordbox only controllers), it's a bit heavy to go back to modifying all the factory mappings, especially as Serato is not the primary Software use case these controllers were made for.
 
Ian Wild wrote :
I'm just wondering if a native mapping update is possible so that all Z2 owners can benefit from the latest features without having to start custom mapping by spending hours and hours scripting each function like I did.


To be fair:
Stems on EQ knobs work out of the box with this mixer, from the very first day stems were introduced.
You can't say that for a lot of mixers. So, I somehow fail to see how you would spend "hours and hours" to remap it in order to work with stems.

Yes, you can remap the "pads"

But:

Z2 come not only before stems, but even before "pads" were a wide spread thing.

It features 4 buttons (that you can call pads, but they are not) arranged on 2 banks.
In retrospective It's a strange way to deal with things, and that's why it's so complicated to remap it.
But in it's time, it made some sense (to provide 4 hotcues and 4 samples)

Other than that, VirtualDJ official mappings try to follow the silkscreen of the device as much close as possible, and when that's not possible, the "original" / "expected" behavior of the unit with the software that comes with it.

Under this scope, Z2 mapping remains accurate. What you read on the device is what you get, and if you ever used it with Traktor then it behaves the same with VirtualDJ
(Yes, VirtualDJ and Traktor behave differently on some matters, but the device behaves the same a.k.a. controls the same things)

Finally, we could update the mapper to use "pads" scripts on the 4 buttons. But without PAD MODE buttons, it defeats the purpose. You can't have the mixer change pad modes independently from GUI, and you have to use the GUI to change pad modes / see what pad mode you are at.

I can't say if an update will be provided or not.
Z2 is an old unit, with it's niche market. There are not a lot of users left using it, and usually we are happy to provide help for anyone wishing to change something on it's own device.
 
I understand what you're saying here: that you're trying to follow the silkscreen to match what's indicated, and that the stems on the EQ knobs are supported.

But if you're interested in how Serato maps the mixer, that seems much more relevant to me.

Personally, I like to keep the EQ knobs for the classic EQs and the "pads," even if you don't call them that, to activate and deactivate the stems. This allows you to act on both the EQs and the stems without having to sacrifice either mode.

Obviously, there are only four pads that are managed across two banks.

But look at how Serato has implemented it.

Copied from the Serato website

The performance pads have 4 different modes you can select.
The first four pads in the selected Pad Mode are activated by pressing the Pad Mode buttons once, the second four are activated by pressing the Pad Mode while holding SHIFT.
To change the to a different Pad Mode, press the Pad Mode buttons twice.

Hot Cue Mode (A or D Button)

Press A (or D for the other channel) to activate Hot Cues

Pads trigger Hot Cues 1–4

Double press A or D to switch to Hot Cues 5–8

Hold SHIFT + pad to delete a Hot Cue

Sampler Mode (C or B Button)

Press C (or B for the other channel) to activate Sampler mode
Press pads 1-8 to trigger samples loaded into the Serato DJ Pro Sampler slots.
Holding SHIFT while pressing a Pad will stop a currently playing Sampler slot or load a new sample into it if it is empty.

Stems mode (A or D Button)

Hold SHIFT + press A (or D for the other channel) to switch to Stems mode
Press pad 1 to toggle off/on the Vocal Stem, press pad 2 to toggle off/on the Melody Stem, press pad 3 to toggle off/on the Bass Stem, and press pad 4 to toggle off/on the Drums Stem.
Press A (or D) again (while holding SHIFT) to use Stems FX
Pads 5-8 toggle Stem Pad FX: FX Vocal Echo, FX Instrumental Echo, Instrumental Braker FX, and FX Drums Echo.

NOTE: Using Stems is very CPU-intensive and may take some time to initialize.
Click here to learn more about using Stems

Scratch Banks (C or B Button)

Hold SHIFT + press C (or B for the other channel) to switch to Scratch Bank mode
Double press C (or B) while holding SHIFT to switch to Scratch Bank Pads 5 - 8
Pads 1 - 8 (If samples are loaded to the Slot) load sample to corresponding virtual deck
Pads 1 - 8 (If no samples are loaded to the Slot) load the highlight track from library to the Scratch Bank Slot.


That seems perfectly relevant to me.

EDIT : The way I created my custom mapping is very similar to how Serato did it, except that I didn't worry about sampler and scratch bank modes because I mainly only use hotcue and stems modes.

These two modes are the most important to me, so simply being able to switch between them is enough for me.

Serato has just gone even further by integrating sampler and scratch bank modes, but the way they assign mode changes with a double tap to move from pads 1-4 to 5-8 is exactly what I did on my custom mapping.

The only difference is that in my case, A and B are used to select hot cue mode, and C and D are used to select stemspad mode. Double-tapping C or D switches to stems FX mode.
 
So with the non-shift based mappings, some conflict with the the existing mapping (the existing mapping probably has to be maintained as there may be users already depending on how it is currently). Shift/double click mappings are probably doable.

Side note: @PhantomDeejay, given there is a dropdown to select mappings (factory and any number of customs), is it possible to provide multiple factory mappings that you guys maintain, as a way to have a completely different/more up to date/relevant factory mapping that breaks from the original (or is this doable already)?
 
I'm usually very careful on what I'm saying.

So: It doesn't matter what Serato did.
Because "it's not what it was meant to be" :P

I mean:
We can come up with 100's of ideas on how to implement not only the functionality described above, but even more. We can make each button to do "six or even more" things based on different conditions in order to provide "maximum functionality"
But that's a big departure of how the unit was designed.
How the unit was designed, is relevant for one purpose:
For a user to be able to find his way around, without needing to memorize awkward key combos!

Read what you wrote above by yourself..
Double click, Triple click, SHIFT Double click.. Do you think the average user will remember all this ?

Recently Reloop released MixTour PRO.
It packs A LOT of features with very little controls.
It also uses double clicks, double shifts and other stuff. And, despite some of them being printed on the silkscreen, most users complain about it's complexity.

Don't get me wrong.
As I said, I don't know if an update will be provided or not.
I'm just pointing out that just because Serato did something, it doesn't mean everybody else should do it.
 
Just to make myself clear:

It's absolutely possible to implement all of the above.
And if you wish to add them on your mapping, I'm more than willing to help you get there.

The "debate" is only about the "factory default" mapping!
 
PhantomDeejay wrote :

Read what you wrote above by yourself..
Double click, Triple click, SHIFT Double click.. Do you think the average user will remember all this ?
.


Contrary to what you might think, it works very well.

Obviously, four modes are complex to use.

The Hotcue and Stems modes are probably the most used pad modes; the Sampler and Scratch Bank pad modes are more secondary modes, which is why they are called with the shift key.

The original mapping is already limited to four hot cues, not eight, and the second mode is the sampler mode. This was probably relevant 13 years ago, but it's no longer relevant today.

No one is asking for up to six modes with shift + triple click or shift + double click.

An updated mapping with eight hot cues across two banks (with double click) + stems mode instead of sampler mode (with stems FX with double click) would simply make more sense today for most existing Z2 users.
 
Ian Wild wrote :
Contrary to what you might think, it works very well.


It doesn't matter what I think. It matters only what the "average" user thinks.

I'll leave it here.

you made your point, and I made mine. :)
 
Guys let's keep it nice.

@Ian Wild your points on the updating of the mappings definitely could make sense from a specific usability perspective, but I think the point that @PhantomDeejay (and myself earlier in perhaps a gentler way) is that VirtualDJ's mapping was made to more closely map what the hardware was designed to do with the software it was designed for (Traktor). While Serato did make a useful mapping from a current standpoint, it's not really how the hardware was designed to be used and we shouldn't be asking for a default factory mapping change (which others depend on) just because Serato did it (Serato, in this case, is a Second class citizen to the hardware, just like VirtualDJ, DJay Pro and everyone else).
Existing usage compatibility (once not clearly a bug) and average user usage will unfortunately always be taken in preference to a hard divergence (e.g. you wouldn't want to plug in your z2 and find out the loop encoder now scrubs through the track by default right?)

In the interim (while the devs figure out how to go forward with this), do you mind sharing the custom mapping as an extension so that others can use? Maybe you can work with @PhantomDeejay to get that done faster?
 
I'd be happy to share my custom mapping, whether with @phantomdeejay or anyone on the development team, or even any user who would like it.

But I've actually customized a lot of things beyond the pad modes to suit my workflow.

In particular, I added automatic activation of ducking echo on a quantized beat when loading a track, with the ability to deactivate/reactivate it at any time by pressing shift+Fx ON (left for deck 1 and right for deck 2).

I also replaced sync with beatlock, with automatic activation of beatlock when loading a track. The idea was to have a quantized scratch thanks to beatlock when playing with phase to make quick mixes before the quantizedScratch feature was implemented. Activating beatlock on deck A simultaneously deactivates beatlock on deck B and vice versa. I didn't worry about decks C and D because I don't use them.

I also remapped the FX 1 & 2 buttons (located below the filter knob on each channel) to more quickly navigate through the effects assignable to the filter. Button 1 selects the previous effect and button 2 selects the next effect.

So, as it stands, my custom mapping probably isn't suitable for everyone and couldn't replace the factory mapping.

However, I think a good part of the scripting work has already been done on the pads modes for the hot cue/stems section, as well as for switching between these two modes.

This would probably require some adjustments to the script formatting, but I think the team could already recover a good part of the code they're interested in.
 
We are not going to update our default/factory Mapping.
But we are going to create a Custom Mapping similar to the Serato functionality and upload it to Addons for anyone wishes to use it.
 
djdad wrote :
We are not going to update our default/factory Mapping.
But we are going to create a Custom Mapping similar to the Serato functionality and upload it to Addons for anyone wishes to use it.


I think this is a good solution, and good news for every Z2 users. I'd be happy to test it when it becomes available.

The most complicated thing is knowing which pad mode you're in (whether you're in hot cue or stem mode if you're just looking at the mixer without looking at the screen).

So I came up with the idea of ​​using different colors sequence.

In hot cue mode, the pads follow the default hot cue colors on the screen.

Pad 1: Red
Pad 2: Orange
Pad 3: Blue
Pad 4: Yellow
Pad 5: Green
Pad 6: Majenta
Pad 7: Cyan
Pad 8: Pink

When no pad contains a hot cue, they are still slightly lit in gray (20% brightness).

In stem mode,

the pads have a completely different color sequence:
Pad 1: Blue (vocal)
Pad 2: Green (instrumental)
Pad 3: Majenta (bass)
Pad 4: Red (drums)
 
Ian Wild wrote :
I'd be happy to share my custom mapping, whether with @phantomdeejay or anyone on the development team, or even any user who would like it.

But I've actually customized a lot of things beyond the pad modes to suit my workflow.


Honestly, even though @djdad said they would put out a custom mapping that would be similar to Serato's, share yours anyways, it might be helpful to ppl.
A lot of newcomers aren't comfortable with scripting and that adds to this perception of it being "difficult to use" or "techie dj software" - you as well as all of us
can share things like this to help reduce that view (for the people who are open to that).