Gallenulenoir
Hi,
I am hoping there are a few of you out there who will read this and either have the nightmare come back, or "facepalm" and point out something obvious.
Here is the story.
I played a "friendly" gig last night for a local sports club I am part of. On the whole a great party, but I had issues during the evening with my Gemini G2V losing contact with Virtual DJ 8 on my laptop (Dell XPS 15 (late 2013 model))
My rig involves the Gemini, my laptop, a Novation Zero SL Mk ii (as a lighting controller) - with VirtualDJ8 and Freestyler running on my laptop.
In addition I have a Chauvet Hurricane 700 Fog machine (manual footswitch).
I was running through a hire PA - (using XLR outs from the Gemini (not sure if that is relevant - does anyone have a view on XLR outs taking more power to drive than the RCAs?? I have not used the XLR outs before).
The system overall ran well - however I found that when I triggered the Chauvet with the footswitch - it sometimes led to comms with from the Gemini to Virtual DJ "degrading" - ie sliders would work but not Headphone buttons, or I would lose control over Virtual DJ all together (but could still control VDJ fine directly on the Laptop). Most of the time the Audio kept running fine. However - I had around four - five instances (it felt like an eternity each time) where the audio stopped - until I pulled and reconnected the USB from the Gemini, or worse case power cycled the Gemini. Virtual DJ kept running (sometime stopping - weird behaviour generally)
Live gig.......not great........ So I was having the joy (I am sure some of you have been there) - keeping the tracks rolling and responding to the crowd, at the same time wracking my brains as to what was going on.......just waiting for the next breakdown........
What I began to realise was the match with activating the fogger (that only became clear as a pattern formed during the night of what was happening when each failure occurred. So for the last hour of the gig I held off the fog - and no more breakdowns - however the limited control continued to the end of the gig (without rebooting the laptop and Gemini together) - I just wanted to keep the show rolling to the end.
My guess is that this was somehow power supply related - however - I have not seen the "degredation" of capability between the controller and the pc before and have not experienced the issue of the fogger causing problems for the Gemini before...... maybe the fogger was not plugged in properly/loose plug - causing lots of electrical noise ??
Could this be because of insufficient/poor quality/noisy power to the Gemini ?? I should add - the Gemini had its own power plugged in - I haven't confirmed the rating on the plug pack that came with the unit.
Thoughts appreciated......
Scott.
I am hoping there are a few of you out there who will read this and either have the nightmare come back, or "facepalm" and point out something obvious.
Here is the story.
I played a "friendly" gig last night for a local sports club I am part of. On the whole a great party, but I had issues during the evening with my Gemini G2V losing contact with Virtual DJ 8 on my laptop (Dell XPS 15 (late 2013 model))
My rig involves the Gemini, my laptop, a Novation Zero SL Mk ii (as a lighting controller) - with VirtualDJ8 and Freestyler running on my laptop.
In addition I have a Chauvet Hurricane 700 Fog machine (manual footswitch).
I was running through a hire PA - (using XLR outs from the Gemini (not sure if that is relevant - does anyone have a view on XLR outs taking more power to drive than the RCAs?? I have not used the XLR outs before).
The system overall ran well - however I found that when I triggered the Chauvet with the footswitch - it sometimes led to comms with from the Gemini to Virtual DJ "degrading" - ie sliders would work but not Headphone buttons, or I would lose control over Virtual DJ all together (but could still control VDJ fine directly on the Laptop). Most of the time the Audio kept running fine. However - I had around four - five instances (it felt like an eternity each time) where the audio stopped - until I pulled and reconnected the USB from the Gemini, or worse case power cycled the Gemini. Virtual DJ kept running (sometime stopping - weird behaviour generally)
Live gig.......not great........ So I was having the joy (I am sure some of you have been there) - keeping the tracks rolling and responding to the crowd, at the same time wracking my brains as to what was going on.......just waiting for the next breakdown........
What I began to realise was the match with activating the fogger (that only became clear as a pattern formed during the night of what was happening when each failure occurred. So for the last hour of the gig I held off the fog - and no more breakdowns - however the limited control continued to the end of the gig (without rebooting the laptop and Gemini together) - I just wanted to keep the show rolling to the end.
My guess is that this was somehow power supply related - however - I have not seen the "degredation" of capability between the controller and the pc before and have not experienced the issue of the fogger causing problems for the Gemini before...... maybe the fogger was not plugged in properly/loose plug - causing lots of electrical noise ??
Could this be because of insufficient/poor quality/noisy power to the Gemini ?? I should add - the Gemini had its own power plugged in - I haven't confirmed the rating on the plug pack that came with the unit.
Thoughts appreciated......
Scott.
Posted Sun 14 Jun 15 @ 6:26 am
wickedmix
others here have experienced issues with fog machines .......
i believe the solution is to make sure the fog machine is powered by a different circuit then the one you laptop and other equipment is on
maybe someone here with first hand experience can explain more.
i believe the solution is to make sure the fog machine is powered by a different circuit then the one you laptop and other equipment is on
maybe someone here with first hand experience can explain more.
Posted Sun 14 Jun 15 @ 8:18 am
groovindj
Just looked up the Chauvet Hurricane 700 - that is one cheap fog machine! :-)
Therein lies the problem. It's been made cheaply. VERY cheaply! They haven't bothered fitting any suppression components which would prevent this type of issue. The machine I use doesn't cause any issues whatsoever - but it costs £560 ($1127 AUD).
I guess you could take it to a electronics guy and have it retro fitted.....
Therein lies the problem. It's been made cheaply. VERY cheaply! They haven't bothered fitting any suppression components which would prevent this type of issue. The machine I use doesn't cause any issues whatsoever - but it costs £560 ($1127 AUD).
I guess you could take it to a electronics guy and have it retro fitted.....
Posted Sun 14 Jun 15 @ 8:30 am
Gallenulenoir
I was doing some more research on this one - another possible solution is to pick up a UPS - something like an APC BK350 EI (230 watts) - which includes a battery backup and filter etc. These sell for around $100 Australian, and seem like a good insurance policy .......
I would use the UPS to run all controller gear I have (my Gemini and the Novation + plus the USB DMX interface dongle) and my laptop - everything else - lights, pa, fogger can run on the standard mains.
Anybody had experience with their own UPS units at gigs ?
I would use the UPS to run all controller gear I have (my Gemini and the Novation + plus the USB DMX interface dongle) and my laptop - everything else - lights, pa, fogger can run on the standard mains.
Anybody had experience with their own UPS units at gigs ?
Posted Mon 15 Jun 15 @ 6:28 am
groovindj
That's a good idea. It's been suggested a few time on various DJ forums. Anything slightly delicate or at risk of shutting down/rebooting would be best plugged into the UPS.
I've never used one at gigs but have one at home for my PC and peripherals.
I've never used one at gigs but have one at home for my PC and peripherals.
Posted Wed 17 Jun 15 @ 11:52 am
Gallenulenoir
Ok - weird twist in this story coming up.
I reproduced the issue at home - power connected into a common powerboard - Gemini G2V, Laptop and Fogger. A few short presses of the Fogger control - Gemini Freezes and sound drops out.
I then tried with just the laptop plugged in (and the fogger) - Gemini running off the USB port power. Same result.
Then the weird one - the Laptop running off its battery, Gemini running off the USB port power - no mains for either plugged in, and then tried short presses of the fogger remote. I got the same result - the Gemini froze, requiring a reboot to recover.........
The usb cable I am using has a ferrite filter on it. I will try some other cables to see if the result is the same......
Anyone got any bright insights on this one ??
I reproduced the issue at home - power connected into a common powerboard - Gemini G2V, Laptop and Fogger. A few short presses of the Fogger control - Gemini Freezes and sound drops out.
I then tried with just the laptop plugged in (and the fogger) - Gemini running off the USB port power. Same result.
Then the weird one - the Laptop running off its battery, Gemini running off the USB port power - no mains for either plugged in, and then tried short presses of the fogger remote. I got the same result - the Gemini froze, requiring a reboot to recover.........
The usb cable I am using has a ferrite filter on it. I will try some other cables to see if the result is the same......
Anyone got any bright insights on this one ??
Posted Sat 20 Jun 15 @ 8:03 am
wickedmix
how close was the fog machine?
maybe move it as far away as possible and try?
has to be some kind of electrical interference between cables and pc or fog machine and pc something along those lines
maybe move it as far away as possible and try?
has to be some kind of electrical interference between cables and pc or fog machine and pc something along those lines
Posted Sat 20 Jun 15 @ 12:36 pm
Gallenulenoir
Have made significant improvements to performance/stability by adding ferrite clip on chokes to the USB cable. Attached 2 additional chokes to each end of the cable. Not sure if this should be necessary - or if there are improvements possible in the design of the Gemini......
Note quite rock solid yet - but order of magnitude reduction in the USB link going down with the fog machine operating nearby.
BTW - Opened up the fogger to have a look at the type of AC noise suppression on the power supply. In the particular model of Chauvet 700 Hurricane I have (it has the IEC connectors for both the power supply and the manual remote) I can say there is NO power noise suppression whatsoever - no coils/caps or filter modules of any description - it is a 240V AC noise maker :-) I think I may be retiring this unit shortly in favour of a model that has a better power supply arrangement. It is a great unit apart from this issue.
Thanks for the all the tips and suggestions.
Note quite rock solid yet - but order of magnitude reduction in the USB link going down with the fog machine operating nearby.
BTW - Opened up the fogger to have a look at the type of AC noise suppression on the power supply. In the particular model of Chauvet 700 Hurricane I have (it has the IEC connectors for both the power supply and the manual remote) I can say there is NO power noise suppression whatsoever - no coils/caps or filter modules of any description - it is a 240V AC noise maker :-) I think I may be retiring this unit shortly in favour of a model that has a better power supply arrangement. It is a great unit apart from this issue.
Thanks for the all the tips and suggestions.
Posted Sat 20 Jun 15 @ 11:29 pm
PhantomDeejay
It appears that the electromagnetic shield on the controller itself is lower than required.
Please don't forget that the communication part of your controller "continues" within the unit and it does not end on the USB port.
Please don't forget that the communication part of your controller "continues" within the unit and it does not end on the USB port.
Posted Mon 22 Jun 15 @ 1:13 am
Gallenulenoir
Hi - I wanted to provide the final chapter in this story.
I have now replaced the Chauvet 700 with a Chauvet 901 - a little more expensive but the overall rig I am running is now totally rock solid. I have now run extensive tests with the same arrangement of power, remotes, controllers, fog machine placement etc. The main difference is that the 901 does not loop the mains out to the remote switch - like the 700 does (a major source of noise), and also contains reasonable AC mains noise suppression (partly because of the low voltage logic to handle the switching and control in the unit. It is a more powerful unit, but feels like a more solid build out of the box.
In the Australian market there is only about $30 difference in price, but the difference in design is significant - this seems to carry through to the larger models.
I want to give a shout out to the Chauvet tech support and the Gemini tech support on the USB side of the G2V. Thanks to everyone who chipped in on this topic.
For completeness - I still have the ferrites on the USB cable - it is sensible insurance :-)
So all in all - a slightly costly and embarrassing education about the impact your smoke machine can have on your gig........
I hope this helps at least some to avoid potential performance disasters :-)
BTW - Also a call out to SBDJ for a truly brilliant Freestyler plugin - Freestyler and VirtualDJ together give you a lot of power to turn on a very professional sound and light show.
I have now replaced the Chauvet 700 with a Chauvet 901 - a little more expensive but the overall rig I am running is now totally rock solid. I have now run extensive tests with the same arrangement of power, remotes, controllers, fog machine placement etc. The main difference is that the 901 does not loop the mains out to the remote switch - like the 700 does (a major source of noise), and also contains reasonable AC mains noise suppression (partly because of the low voltage logic to handle the switching and control in the unit. It is a more powerful unit, but feels like a more solid build out of the box.
In the Australian market there is only about $30 difference in price, but the difference in design is significant - this seems to carry through to the larger models.
I want to give a shout out to the Chauvet tech support and the Gemini tech support on the USB side of the G2V. Thanks to everyone who chipped in on this topic.
For completeness - I still have the ferrites on the USB cable - it is sensible insurance :-)
So all in all - a slightly costly and embarrassing education about the impact your smoke machine can have on your gig........
I hope this helps at least some to avoid potential performance disasters :-)
BTW - Also a call out to SBDJ for a truly brilliant Freestyler plugin - Freestyler and VirtualDJ together give you a lot of power to turn on a very professional sound and light show.
Posted Thu 02 Jul 15 @ 7:29 am