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Forum: General Discussion

Topic: Legal and safe way to sell VirtualDJ - Page: 1

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Posted Sun 07 Oct 12 @ 3:24 pm
The End User License that you agreed to when purchasing the software forbids resale of the software.

I'm sure a teaser or mod will provide you more info.
 
All the information you require is here. The reason the previous thread was locked is that the software cannot be resold per the EULA

http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/Serial%20Transfer.html

There have been various discussions surrounding the resale of software in the last couple of months but it doesn't change the company policy.

Keith
 
My personal opinion as a consumer - these are my views and my views alone and do not reflect the views or opinion of Atomix or VirtualDJ


djnanite wrote :
First sale doctrine allows for the resale of any bought item, right?


Let's put this in the context of a physical tangible item. I buy 'x' product and after I no longer want it I sell it.

As part of buying product 'x' the manufacture provided me extra BENEFITS at NO cost. Like exclusive membership as a product owner. Improvements or special access to things that would make 'x' product more useful and beneficial to me for buying their product.

So, do you think the manufacture should extend those same BENEFITS to another person if I re-sold their product?

Would it not be at the manufacture's discretion and choosing to allow for the 'NO COST BENEFITS' to be reserved or limited to the original purchaser?

-------------

With that said ... put it into a context of one of the biggest issues in our industry and that is 'music piracy'.

If someone buys a single track or an entire CD - do they have the right to resell that music?
What is there to stop the original purchaser from reselling it 10, 100, or a thousand times over?
How would anyone know that the user actually deleted the music from their 'electronic' library?



And before anyone brings up the recent Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) ruling about Oracle and their software - make sure you understand that it was a 'court opinion' that was given to the German court at their request. That 'real' court case in German is not settled yet.

So, before people say I am twisting or don't understand the 'law' of that case ... you are partially right. Me personally, I am not a lawyer and I do not have the legal expertise to interpret the opinion for 'factual' accuracy and/or its application to the software industry. And I am clearly not giving my opinion as a member of Atomix/VirtualDJ.


But, I definitely have a my own ethics and personal opinion about respecting everyday commerce activities towards 'soft' goods. Things that can easily be copied or reproduced then sold where one could still possess the item but also sell it to someone else - IMO purely unethical and morally wrong.

I do not believe that just because I bought something of another person's or company's intellectual creation gives me the right to resell it. Specially if since there would be no way of knowing if I truly made that item "unusable" at the time I resold the good. A car, house, clothes, etc. it is a given that I would not be able to 'use' the item(s) any longer -- but with intangible goods like software, how would one truly know?
 
Nevermind.............
 
Hmmm...I'm going to tread carefully here as this could very easily descend into a loooong argument between 2 differing sides, but here is my response to your arguments. I'm happy to let this topic rest if you are, as this discussion could just run and run...
cstoll wrote :
As part of buying product 'x' the manufacture provided me extra BENEFITS at NO cost. Like exclusive membership as a product owner. Improvements or special access to things that would make 'x' product more useful and beneficial to me for buying their product.

So, do you think the manufacture should extend those same BENEFITS to another person if I re-sold their product?

This really all depends on what you are selling - a product, or a service? A service can be rightfully said to stop as soon as you stop paying for it. But a product is tangible item (e.g. a boxed copy of Virtual DJ, or a CD) that is protected under first sale doctrine.

So is Virtual DJ a product or a service?

Personally, I think it's a product, since you charge extra for separate services like Net-Search. If you're worried about people using it after they've sold their license key, just get the software to 'phone home' every couple of weeks (or months) to ensure it is only being used on a pre-authorised hardware configuration.

cstoll wrote :
If someone buys a single track or an entire CD - do they have the right to resell that music?

Not sure if this is the best example. If I buy a CD of music, I absolutely have the right to sell it on. As long as I am not keeping a copy for myself.

cstoll wrote :
What is there to stop the original purchaser from reselling it 10, 100, or a thousand times over?

Nothing. The best you can do is ensure that those who buy the product legitimately aren't penalised for doing so. The reason most people use pirated products is (mainly) because they are free, but that just means they perceived the product price to be too high to begin with. Most people will happily pay a price they feel a product is worth. It just may not be what *you* (the seller) thinks it's worth.

cstoll wrote :
How would anyone know that the user actually deleted the music from their 'electronic' library?

DRM was designed to prevent that and it was more hassle than it was worth. Genuine buyers of DRM'd DVD's, CD's, and MP3's are penalised for buying the official article - they pay more, and can do less. It's why Apple moved their iTunes store over to DRM free music, but their prices are still too high (higher than buying a CD from the shop), and some products aren't available for sale in certain countries.

People use pirated products because they are a better product than the genuine article (i.e. cheaper and unrestricted).

Sell a good product at a reasonable price, and people will (usually) pay it. You can't guarantee that *everyone* will pay it, nor can you guarantee that nobody will try and hack it. But if you make the genuine article have a higher value than the knock-offs (e.g. by preventing software updates, Net-Search included in the price, etc...) then genuine users will see the benefit of paying. If someone uses a knock-off, well...let them. If they're serious about music, and they see the benefits of getting the genuine software, they will pay. If not, then they are not really your target audience anyway, and you can't lose money you never had in the first place, right?

I wonder how many DJ's used a 'dodgy' copy of VirtualDJ to begin with and then went on to buy the full version when they saw the benefits...?
 
I have a simular situation that has given me cause to add a line to my client agreements. I scheduled a lighting only event with a client for September 15. Client paid in full upon booking and signed an agreement. Basically, a week and a half before the wedding, the bride called to reschedule the wedding to March 9, saying there were family problems or something. In truth, the wedding was called off, and her sister's wedding was scheduled for March 9th and she wanted to "sell" the lighting that she had paid for with me to her sister's wedding. But she wasn't telling me that, I had to do my own investigation.

I think that most of us would share the same feelings about booking 1 bride, and getting sold to another over 2 different dates. And it's the same with reselling software. If you bought VDJ 7 years ago. You have not paid for an update since. Atomix profits and grows by selling to NEW customers. So if you resell your software to a third party, you are cheating Atomix out of their future customers. And that is why it is not allowed by ANY software provider.
 
CMBDJ wrote :
I have a simular situation that has given me cause to add a line to my client agreements. I scheduled a lighting only event with a client for September 15. Client paid in full upon booking and signed an agreement. Basically, a week and a half before the wedding, the bride called to reschedule the wedding to March 9, saying there were family problems or something. In truth, the wedding was called off, and her sister's wedding was scheduled for March 9th and she wanted to "sell" the lighting that she had paid for with me to her sister's wedding. But she wasn't telling me that, I had to do my own investigation.


Sorry if this is a dumb question, but if your client wanted the existing lighting arrangements, but just wanted to change the date/location, what difference does it make it if it was her (or her sister) who was using the lights? The lights had been paid for already.

Maybe she had requested a refund, or maybe your lights were already booked out on that new date, or maybe you had an agreement to only give partial refunds for changes less than 2 weeks before an event. But unless you had a 'no refunds' clause I can't see how you would have lost out here.
 
OK I'm gonna assume were talking about the "PRO" version here......... I can see Why a "Registered" version can't be sold but it would seem OK to me with a "LE" version........
As it stands I have the Pro and I have a couple controllers that came with the LE version. So I'm gonna assume when the time comes I can sell the software with the controller it came with. Since it's never been registered I've not received any of the benefits of registering. So the EULA only applies to registered software...........

Or am I just way off base??
 
That's correct, you did not register the software, or it's license number.
 
Gotcha & Thanks..........
 
Let's say I use a fully registered and paid up version of Virtual DJ Pro.

Now let's say I wish to retire from DJ-ing, or I decided to use another product, or something else. I no longer need to use VirtaulDJ at all.

If I have a friend/relative who wants to try out DJ-ing, is there any legal way I can give that person my license i.e. as a gift? Or is there any way I can change the user account my license key is registered to so he can use?

If Virtual DJ is an actual 'product' what I am trying to do is fair and legal - give someone the use of my product, and prevent myself from ever using that product again.

Hey, even if there was a 'transfer' fee to cover costs and show support, that would be OK.

Granted, this is a very particular scenario, but I would still be interested to know people's thoughts on this.
 
I'm gonna say No because it's already been registered which is the determining factor here. So until or if they make a license transferable it's a no go as long as it (the software) has never been registered.

I'd say if you have a controller with an unregistered number gift that.........
 
Like I said in my first post ... I am not going to speak as a representative of Atomix and only speak from my personal position.
------------------

As an original purchaser of VirtualDJ, I respect their 'terms' as outlined in the End User License Agreement.

So let me ask this ... if I was to sell my software and completely remove all remnants of every owning the software from my computers ...

Which version of the software should I be able to sell - the 2.01 version that I originally got ... or the 7.1 version that I now have?

Should Atomix allow the new owner of the software to register the license number and continue to get all the benefits that were granted to me by being the original owner of the software?

Should that new owner continue to get all the free updates?


Personally, I think the benefits that Atomix has granted to me by purchasing their software 'first hand' shows a commitment to me in ensuring I get the best product out there. Why should I disrespect that commitment by just handing off their product to someone else as if I never benefited from owning the product to begin with.
 
I don't understand this!!

You use the forums!
You ask for help on the forums!
You make requests for the updates!
You download updates from the forum!
It's apparent you use this software regardless of you're gripes of the software..

Yet you want to resell?? Every company has rules and regulations! I don't understand why you see all the locked threads yet you still want add you're 2cents on why its not possible to resell...
 
danielsr2006 wrote :
I don't understand this!!

You use the forums!
You ask for help on the forums!
You make requests for the updates!
You download updates from the forum!
It's apparent you use this software regardless of you're gripes of the software..

Yet you want to resell?? Every company has rules and regulations! I don't understand why you see all the locked threads yet you still want add you're 2cents on why its not possible to resell...

Calm down. It was just a hypothetical question.

I'm not considering reselling. At least not yet. But if I did, I'd like to know what my rights are.

Also, I thought this was an interesting discussion, and it clarified a few grey areas for me.
 
Lmao! Calming down now:)

"Not yet"..yes you have considered selling a long time ago..

"Interesting discussion"..I figured out the regulations after the second locked thread I read about resell. So it is not interesting after that:)

You already own vdj software! It would be usefull anytime. Main or backup setup.
 
I think "legally" an user can resell software . It's not about the company rules , it's the law .
For example , you can resell Traktor without any problem .
I have 2 vdj licenses and i don't want to resell them (my husband is also dj) .
 
DjCaro wrote :
It's not about the company rules


I believe company 'rules' do play a part in what happens 'after' a person gets rid of their software. That to me is still a company's right to chose how they handle a future owner of the sold software.

What amazes me so far is that most people that want to discuss this topic completely throw out the 'ethical' and 'moral' nature of the discussion.

We work in an industry that is plagued daily on this topic. And it boils down to morals and ethical judgement of right and wrong on selling someone's intellectual works in the digital medium. Especially when the digital medium can not be controlled to a level that also brings protection to the originator of that intellectual work.

A very recent article by our friends at digitaldjtips.com raised the same topic but directed at the industry issue of selling (stealing) music - http://www.digitaldjtips.com/2012/10/is-it-now-ok-for-djs-to-steal-music/

Do people really believe that there should not be protections for the originator of the good - music, software, etc.?

And that the only protections that should exist is for the consumer to do as they please with that good after they take possession of it?
 
Made in error, Just read the whole post ;-)
 
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