Sign In:     

Forum: General Discussion

Topic: key tone problems - Page: 1

This part of topic is old and might contain outdated or incorrect information

so today ive been scanning some music for bpm's and keys.

ive noticed that they are some major differences in vdj and on the camelot wheel

for example

C#minor in vdj is given the Numeric Key number of 12A

now then

on the camelot wheel 12A is actually Dflat minor and c# minor is none existant.

also

A#m given 03A but is not on the camelot

D#m given 02A but not on the camelot.

there are several of these ive noticed and would like to know the reason behind this.

could someone please explain to me whats happening here and why?

im doing a lot of wokr on the theory side of djaying at the moment and am a bit stuck.

thanks

john
 
Posted Thu 03 Feb 11 @ 9:32 am


What wheel are you looking at??

Huey
 
that one you just posted.
 
Wouldn't 02A and 03A just be considered 2A and 3A?

Si
 
@Blu, I usually go with the letters, its not a 100% but is usually real close. And like SI said just leave the zero off. Always trust your EARS.......they will never let you down..........

Huey
 
yeah i dont tend to use the zeros, but i thought it best to show it as it is written in vdj.

still though im no further forward

why are there keytones listed that dont appear on the wheel?

and why are they numbered in such a way that they seem wrong?
 
Bro are you studing science or becoming a dj?? Lol!! Only the creators of VDJ can answer that for you. Focus on mixing, like I said don't depend on it rather use it as a base and your ears will do the rest. And practice with your headphones on.

Good Luck
Huey
 
im learning the science of djing......whats wrong with that???

and wheres the production team??????????????

hey production team! i need answers........
 
I'm with Huey on this one. Key information is only a guide. BPMs can be wrong for that matter. The software does it's job, it plays and has the ability (depending on the user) to mix music flawlessly. Your audience doesn't see keys, bpms, waveforms, etc., they simply just hear the music. If you wanna be good, you gotta listen first, theory second. The end product is absorbed by the ears.

Time to invest in some Headphones.
 
i already got 2 sets of headphones. i can alread beatmatch by ear and mix harmonically by ear and a shit load of other stuff.

all i want is an answer to my question but it doesnt look like im getting one as everyone has totally missed the point of it in the first place.

 
Like I said the only one's who can answer it are the programmers, creators, etc, etc.............nobody missed it, it was the way it was worded..........sorry.

Relax and give the internet a break, lol!
Huey
 
seeing as no one knew the answer ive discovered it all on my lonesome without the help of the production team.

for those of you that dont know, well heres the answer.

the camelot wheel is a simplified version of the circle of 4th & 5ths

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

now if you look at the circle of 5ths you will notice at the 4 oclock position we have E major

E major on the circle of fifths is within the key range of C#minor.

also several of the other keys i have quieried are contained within the circle of 5ths.

it would appear that the production team have created their key database from not only the keys in the camelot wheel, but with those from the circle of 5ths too.

this explains why there are keys such as C#minor detected within vdj but are not shown on the camelot wheel.

i have yet to find the link between the 2 and why some keys seem to be missing from both but i will sort that out later.

unless someone has an answer as to why there are different keys on both wheels?
 
hmmmmmm,,, it would seem, that the camelot wheel has more to it than first meets the eye by using theoretical keys to list a greater key range than we actually see. the camelot wheel states at 12A that the key effective of E major is D flat minor. however being that D flat minor is a theoretical key or impossible key. it can contain one of 7 seperate pitches and has a key signature consisting of 7 flats and one double flat. .

the scale of the d flat minor is the eharmonic equivelent of C#minor.

C♯ minor: C♯ D♯ E F♯ G♯ A B
D♭ minor: D♭ E♭ F♭ G♭ A♭ B C


so using certain theoretical keys in the camelot wheel there is actuallly a total of 16 seperate keytones that can be used harmonically with E major. actually there are more once you go into 2 and 7 key jumps in your harmonic mixing.

now assuming there are more than one of these theoretical keys used in the camelot wheel then there is a lot more to learn on the usage and hidden keys within the camelot wheel.

so it would seem that the production team have taken care to cover all the bases in regards to key tone detection.

i have yet to play around some more to find out just how acurate vdj is but i am expecting there is a lot more to its key detection system than we think.

i would like to see how mixed in key stands up to it and vice versa.
 
hmmm only one theoretical key is used on the camelot wheel.

i wonder why???
 
Frickin nice find bro!! It all makes sense now (light bulb above my head lit up)!! Now if a Teamer can confirm your findings we'd be good.......

Huey
 
can someone please tell me if there is a difference in annotation for major and minor keys in vdj????

all i get is what seems to be minor keys.

are minor keys depicted with the use of an "m"

and major keys depicted with the use of "ma"

it seems that within my collection thats been scanned so far that all i have is minor keys.

a screen shot would be great.

im also in need of confirmation as to if D flat minor actually registers within vdj.

now i know C#minor is detected by vdj, but seeing as C#minor is the eharmonic equivelent of D flat minor, this means that if vdj doenst register keys in D flat minor then the camelot wheel and vdj arent entirely compatable.

if one is using the theoretical key of C#minor and the other D flat minor then mistakes can be made when mixing harmonically due to the theoretical keys not matching.

without prior knowlege or the eharmonic equivilency's of these theoretics then a true blend can not truly be reached.

for example if vdj shows the theoretical key C#minor, yet the camelot wheel doesn't then it would be impossible to work on a harmonic blend due to the C#minor key not being used in the camelot wheel.

i plan to do some more work on this and produce a "new" wheel that will be more true to vdj.
 
it would seem also, that the theoretical key of C#minor is more widley used than that of D flat minor. which leads me to believe this is why it is used by vdj whereas the D flat minor isnt or may not be. (evidence needed)
 
Unbelievable that so many can reply and no one actully answer.

C# (C-Sharp) and Db (D-flat) is the same tone.

# means on half note up and b means one half note down. As C and D are one note apart it is effectivly the same tone.

On a piano C#m would be smarter as the scale would be

C# D# E F# G# A# B (5 #'s)

compared to

Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bbb Cb (8 b's)

When you play a piano you would want a minimum of modifiers to the key as it is easier to read on notation and easier if you wanna improvise on top of it.

For some unknown reason the camelot wheel uses flats instead of sharps in some instances.

Best Regards

DJJJ
 
That was an interesting read, but I'm glad somebody has actually found the answer!

C# and D flat are the same note, it's the black key between the C and the D on the keyboard. A scale is just a set of notes starting from the "root" note (c# in this case) that sound good toghter, so it makes sense that C# scale and d flat scale would be the same since they start with the same note.

That's my understanding of it anyway. I think there's more to scales than I've said, but I'm still learning too. I know I haven't said anything new here, but just to put it in a couple of lines to try and make it clearer.
 
Blulite wrote :

A#m given 03A but is not on the camelot

D#m given 02A but not on the camelot.


A#m =>>>its the same as B flat m

D#m =>>> its the same as E flat m

The composer can decide which Key to use for music writing on paper but it doesn't change the sounding.

Just pick up music theory for beginners book if you really want to learn this. No need to bother programmers.
 
54%