DJShahar.com
so here i am reading stuff on this website and i have found two web pages with conflicting information.
my question: is it possible to convert an MIDI device to HID device? if so, would someone please tell Denon to update their device.
If not, then, how much scratching can we do with out running into "ohhhhhhhhhhh what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuu........" issues during a gig?
very eager to get replies,
DJ Shahar a.k.a. dj kz.
Los Angeles DJ Shahar
- http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/HIDvsMIDI.html
- http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/Denon.html
- So, to summarize, the MIDI interface is an old protocol, that can still be safely used for simple controllers that have only buttons, sliders and LEDs, but is ill-advised for controllers with jog-wheels or LCD displays.
- Ever since the needle hit vinyl, DJ’s have been setting the standard for what’s hot. Denon comes from that same philosophy and passion–leading the way and creating the path for DJ evolution. That path has lead to the DN-HC4500, Denon’s first USB MIDI/Audio interface designed exclusively for computer performance club and mobile DJs worldwide. This feature packed professional PC/MAC compatible controller combines unmatched hardware performance with internal high quality audio processing offering low latency ASIO/OSX Core Audio support.
my question: is it possible to convert an MIDI device to HID device? if so, would someone please tell Denon to update their device.
If not, then, how much scratching can we do with out running into "ohhhhhhhhhhh what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuu........" issues during a gig?
very eager to get replies,
DJ Shahar a.k.a. dj kz.
Los Angeles DJ Shahar
Posted Mon 24 Aug 09 @ 2:37 pm
SBDJ
Where did you get the idea that fast scratching would crash/freeze VDJ? Surely the device just wouldn't have the response time and resolution needed and thus the output would just not be as accurate as you might like.
I think you're both misreading and overreacting ;)
Two more things:
1) I seriously doubt Denon will be ditching the MIDI in the HC4500 for HID.
2) The HC4500 isn't really a serious scratching device.
I think you're both misreading and overreacting ;)
Two more things:
1) I seriously doubt Denon will be ditching the MIDI in the HC4500 for HID.
2) The HC4500 isn't really a serious scratching device.
Posted Mon 24 Aug 09 @ 3:49 pm
DJ Cyder
Denon doesn't use normal midi, neither does Vestex or Numark. The word midi is purely used in marketing midi is a familiar term in the dj world. Just like hid is a familiar term in the pc world hid or human interface device are input devices that require no driver aka keyboard and mouse. Can you do more with hid then todays midi probably not is it less stable doubt it. Vdj handles with ease 14bit midi regular midi and hid. The Rmx uses a hybrid between midi and hid. Most midi controllers these days are using 14bit midi which is a world of difference between normal midi. We'll look into updating the wiki to be less confusing. Btw the dmc-2 is an hid device. Serious scratching and hc4500 should never be in the same sentence the jogs are way to small for that.
Posted Mon 24 Aug 09 @ 3:55 pm
DJ Cyder
SBDJ wrote :
I think you're both misreading and overreacting ;)
I think you're both misreading and overreacting ;)
+1
Posted Mon 24 Aug 09 @ 3:57 pm
kradcliffe
I have used the HC-4500 for a year in all types of scenarios and it has NEVER crashed VDJ. I'm using V5.2 with the JP Boggis mapper and it is totally faultless. The scratch with jogwheels is perfectly acceptable given that scratching is not really a main feature of the unit.
It's so good it almost feels part of my body. 4ms latency on Asio and my mixing has never been better.
It's one of the best controllers out there and with VDJ it's the perfect solution for club DJ's
It's so good it almost feels part of my body. 4ms latency on Asio and my mixing has never been better.
It's one of the best controllers out there and with VDJ it's the perfect solution for club DJ's
Posted Mon 24 Aug 09 @ 3:58 pm
DiskJockeyWatty
I know I already said this in anouther section here...but. My HC4500 is working great with VDJ, even on a 7 1/2 non stop gig. Never crased once due to the HC4500. Just make sure not to update to 1.06 yet. Stick with 1.05 and will be fine (if running VDJ6). My external hard drive is giving more problems then my HC4500.
Posted Mon 24 Aug 09 @ 5:15 pm
DJShahar.com
How I love to get so much feedback and in such a short time. thank you all for responding o' so fast.
First, I want to make it clear that my intentions were not and are to judge, criticize, pass blame, be dramatic, mislead, or overreact? my apologies if the text exposed me that way.
I find information that interest me and what what I do, what we all do: DJ. and when such news of "don't scratch with xxx or your computer will crash" passes by me, I consider it my duty to report it, to highlight it, so that you, the rest of the Virtual DJ community are aware of it and might just do something about it.
In my last denon report, I wrote what i found about the new HC5000, people made comments, and it's clear to me that Denon's new product HC5000 is no good for us and that we should stick with what we have already.
A few questions to answer.
Information regarding scratching with a MIDI device may cause problems was retrieved from the following web page:
http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/HIDvsMIDI.html
I've highlighted the words that stuck out with use of bold so you can get a good grasp of the information I found very disturbing.
If I am accused of misleading, then let me lead you to this page, while i get mislead myself.
Being a member of Automix Productions, I'm sure beyond any doubt that you can you can wipe the floor me in a DJ scratching competition. For my own gigs, however, the client wants a nice scratch between songs every now and then. In simple words "it would be nice to not have to worry that scratching may cause a crash."
This whole thing about HID, old MIDI, and new MIDI is new to me. HID vs MIDI alone is new to me and I've never even heard of old MIDI and new MIDI. I thought HID is the new technology replacing MIDI. Thanks for clarifying DJ Cyder.
In this case, you the experts, DJ Cyder and SBDJ tell me that there is nothing to worry about because Virtual DJ is the ..is and is not gonna get me stuck in a "what am i supposed to do now?" situation. So, in that perspective problem solved.. It is solved right? Is it gonna give me problems?
Since the subject was brought up.. Please do take the time to update the Wiki. It serves as a huge part of me understanding how things work in the DJ industry and Virtual DJ. scripts, skins, plugins, hardware, software. I take time and pride reading that Wiki on a regular basis. So, please keep it up to date for all of us.
Thanks,
DJ Shahar
First, I want to make it clear that my intentions were not and are to judge, criticize, pass blame, be dramatic, mislead, or overreact? my apologies if the text exposed me that way.
I find information that interest me and what what I do, what we all do: DJ. and when such news of "don't scratch with xxx or your computer will crash" passes by me, I consider it my duty to report it, to highlight it, so that you, the rest of the Virtual DJ community are aware of it and might just do something about it.
In my last denon report, I wrote what i found about the new HC5000, people made comments, and it's clear to me that Denon's new product HC5000 is no good for us and that we should stick with what we have already.
A few questions to answer.
- SBDJ
Information regarding scratching with a MIDI device may cause problems was retrieved from the following web page:
http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/HIDvsMIDI.html
I've highlighted the words that stuck out with use of bold so you can get a good grasp of the information I found very disturbing.
If I am accused of misleading, then let me lead you to this page, while i get mislead myself.
- DJ Cyder
Being a member of Automix Productions, I'm sure beyond any doubt that you can you can wipe the floor me in a DJ scratching competition. For my own gigs, however, the client wants a nice scratch between songs every now and then. In simple words "it would be nice to not have to worry that scratching may cause a crash."
This whole thing about HID, old MIDI, and new MIDI is new to me. HID vs MIDI alone is new to me and I've never even heard of old MIDI and new MIDI. I thought HID is the new technology replacing MIDI. Thanks for clarifying DJ Cyder.
In this case, you the experts, DJ Cyder and SBDJ tell me that there is nothing to worry about because Virtual DJ is the ..is and is not gonna get me stuck in a "what am i supposed to do now?" situation. So, in that perspective problem solved.. It is solved right? Is it gonna give me problems?
Since the subject was brought up.. Please do take the time to update the Wiki. It serves as a huge part of me understanding how things work in the DJ industry and Virtual DJ. scripts, skins, plugins, hardware, software. I take time and pride reading that Wiki on a regular basis. So, please keep it up to date for all of us.
Thanks,
DJ Shahar
Posted Mon 24 Aug 09 @ 7:19 pm
DJ Cyder
its not to be said one is better then the other they are just "different" To clarify the old and new midi. Standard midi gives you values of 0-127 and 14 bit "stacks" two seven bit messages into one giving you a value between 0-16000 so things like pitch sliders and jogwheels are a lot more accurate in the "new" midi but its not really "new" per-say its just providing a higher resolution of the "old" way . Denon has even had the foresight to let the user adjust just how fast the controller can send midi data just in case it sends too quickly however this adjustment is not needed for Virtualdj but it is there. Like I said before the term midi is just used in marketing it is a standard and DJ's like standards so this helps them sell you that new controller.
Posted Mon 24 Aug 09 @ 8:31 pm
SBDJ
Let me put this as simply as I can for you, since you seem to have ignored what I said ;)
Firstly: I see nothing on http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/HIDvsMIDI.html relating to scratching. You've read something, misunderstood it and then adapted it for your own scaremongering. When it says ill-advised for jogwheels and LCD displays it says nothing about scratching. It also doesn't say it will crash the app. You've made all this up!! What it does mean is that HID would be usually be a better choice from standard MIDI. Of course not all MIDI is created equal either.
Secondly: Scratching with a MIDI controller will not cause an application to hang, freeze or crash. Lots of controllers are using MIDI for this function - even Numarks NS7 which is aimed as a scratch machine.
Thirdly: MIDI has limited speed and resolution. If you were able to move the platter quicker than MIDI could cope, or with smaller movements than MIDI could cope with, then all that would happen is that data would be lost. This wouldn't cause a crash or a freeze. Vendors have been improving MIDI implementations to help cope with this.
Fourthly: If you were a serious scratch DJ you wouldn't buy an HC4500 to scratch with.
Firstly: I see nothing on http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/HIDvsMIDI.html relating to scratching. You've read something, misunderstood it and then adapted it for your own scaremongering. When it says ill-advised for jogwheels and LCD displays it says nothing about scratching. It also doesn't say it will crash the app. You've made all this up!! What it does mean is that HID would be usually be a better choice from standard MIDI. Of course not all MIDI is created equal either.
Secondly: Scratching with a MIDI controller will not cause an application to hang, freeze or crash. Lots of controllers are using MIDI for this function - even Numarks NS7 which is aimed as a scratch machine.
Thirdly: MIDI has limited speed and resolution. If you were able to move the platter quicker than MIDI could cope, or with smaller movements than MIDI could cope with, then all that would happen is that data would be lost. This wouldn't cause a crash or a freeze. Vendors have been improving MIDI implementations to help cope with this.
Fourthly: If you were a serious scratch DJ you wouldn't buy an HC4500 to scratch with.
Posted Tue 25 Aug 09 @ 7:15 am
DJShahar.com
What are you talking about? I always pay careful attention to what you say and have much respect to what you say. I thought you didn't understand what I said ;)
So, let me give you my undivided attention and address your points one by one.
1st subject. We know that jog wheel is considered ill-advised. Now, what do you suppose I use to scratch with? Exactly, the jogwheel. What is still not clear to this point is the meaning of "ill-advised". That is where it all started from. Well, I (unprofessional scratch DJ) practice at home scratching with my Denon HC4500. Sometimes Virtual DJ will freeze for a while. So, you are absolutely right. The application will not crash. It will freeze. My apologies for using the wrong word. DJ Cyder says that MIDI is a commonly used term for DJ's. So, that's where a device, be it old MIDI, new MIDI, HID, or any other form of hardware unknown to me as of yet, all get labeled "MIDI controller". So, now I.. we need to do some serious research and create a list of what controller uses what form of technology add make it clear what controller should a DJ avoid purchasing if he/she wishes to perform using xxx feature. As you said "not all MIDI is created equal". Agreed, some use new technology called 'new MIDI' some use technology called HID, and some just remain in the stone age and hire a very good marketing team to sell their piece of ..ish.. ei.. ei.. eish products. << how you like my scratchign ability now? ;)
2nd and 3rd subject (they seem the same to me). Numark NS7 is a fabulous piece of hardware. A reviewer at C-Net says its one downfall is it weight. deck1+deck2+mixer in 1.. Getting back to the main subject.. I've fiddled with my Numark DMC2 and it does not crash. If I scratch too fast too long, it will jump a few beats back and will resume scratching. As annoying as that may be, I understand it now. The Denon HC4500 on the other hand, has caused Virtual DJ to to simply display the same image of the application for about 20 to 30 seconds and not respond to any hardware movements, then resume. Call it freeze, hang, what ever you want. It does happen. Denon HC4500 does not know how to cope with it.
4th subject. :)
If i'm serious??.. if i'm serious??.. are you serious? let me tell you how serious i am. ;)
Why did the chick[en] cross the road? ... Give up? ... Cause there's a better DJ on the other side.
Posted Tue 25 Aug 09 @ 10:22 pm
Moderation staff
Please don't quote the post that is right before your's post ... it just clutters the thread in the long run .... Thank you ...
Posted Tue 25 Aug 09 @ 11:02 pm
cstoll
Another MOUNTAIN out of an ant hill .... look it's real simple HID is a better protocol than MIDI ... but since HID is not as straight forward and NEW a lot of manufactures have stuck with MIDI and some have tried to improve upon it with using LSB and MSB (aka 14-bit) to get higher resolution (positions) ... but the protocol is still slow.
And so that is why the comment about 'ill-advised' was used ... MIDI is fine for ON-OFF or simple 128 step encoders/sliders/knobs ... but it was never intended to be 'fast' like what a DJ would need for scratching. HID on the other hand is much faster and more responsive. That is why computer mice are HID devices and no longer Serial devices as a simple example. And most manufactures are doing hybrids of MIDI and HID in some cases because of the latency and resolution achieved by HID.
So, can we just drop the argument ? You guys are killing me ... ;)
btw ... I changed the title of this thread because it is misleading ... have a good one ...
Cheers!
And so that is why the comment about 'ill-advised' was used ... MIDI is fine for ON-OFF or simple 128 step encoders/sliders/knobs ... but it was never intended to be 'fast' like what a DJ would need for scratching. HID on the other hand is much faster and more responsive. That is why computer mice are HID devices and no longer Serial devices as a simple example. And most manufactures are doing hybrids of MIDI and HID in some cases because of the latency and resolution achieved by HID.
So, can we just drop the argument ? You guys are killing me ... ;)
btw ... I changed the title of this thread because it is misleading ... have a good one ...
Cheers!
Posted Tue 25 Aug 09 @ 11:12 pm
SBDJ
I use an HC4500 myself, and don't have the freezing issues you do. I would suspect something is up with your system.
Posted Wed 26 Aug 09 @ 3:14 am
DJShahar.com
do you scratch with it?
Posted Wed 26 Aug 09 @ 11:07 am
kradcliffe
Not sure about Scott, but I dont.
The effect works reasonably well, but as has been mentioned several times before the HC-4500 is not a device designed for scratching and there are many better solutions out there.
The effect works reasonably well, but as has been mentioned several times before the HC-4500 is not a device designed for scratching and there are many better solutions out there.
Posted Wed 26 Aug 09 @ 11:26 am
DJShahar.com
Denon HC4500 has jog wheels intended for scratching.
What more need be said?
When scratching too fast too long, the screen freezes. So, my hardware problem is that virtual dj has a bug needed to be fixed with Dennon HC4500.
Some say it's a computer problem. Well I say nay nay. I'm using a new laptop dual 2.93, 8GB ram. At the very least it is not a computer issue.
What more need be said?
When scratching too fast too long, the screen freezes. So, my hardware problem is that virtual dj has a bug needed to be fixed with Dennon HC4500.
Some say it's a computer problem. Well I say nay nay. I'm using a new laptop dual 2.93, 8GB ram. At the very least it is not a computer issue.
Posted Wed 26 Aug 09 @ 12:54 pm
kradcliffe
Hey Chris ...... stay calm ..... it's your birthday :)
Posted Wed 26 Aug 09 @ 4:27 pm
Caliente123
The Denon Hc4500 has a small jog wheel for simple scratching. Its not designed for serious scratching.. Try scratching to see if what you read is true.. If it doesnt freeze, then you are fine. This controller is for mixing, Not for a hip hop dj.
Posted Wed 26 Aug 09 @ 6:05 pm
DJShahar.com
Well this is all just one big mess. It was supposed to be a simple forum topic along the line of "hey watch out for this thing"
ok chris, here is my last comment.
happy birthday and have a great day. Didn't mean to get you angry. sorry.
ok chris, here is my last comment.
happy birthday and have a great day. Didn't mean to get you angry. sorry.
Posted Wed 26 Aug 09 @ 6:43 pm
szeppieri
djkz, if you are using VISTA, you must change the Jog Trans setting (found in v1005, preset mode) to 10ms or higher, (XP is no problem)
If set to the default of 3ms on VISTA it could freeze on you.
Make sure that you are using v1005
If set to the default of 3ms on VISTA it could freeze on you.
Make sure that you are using v1005
Posted Fri 28 Aug 09 @ 12:42 am
