wblair
I have tried using the BPM Editor in Virtual DJ 8 and it is often incorrect. I have also tried several other programs in the past with the same results.....don't remember the software names. I have both audio and video files that I use for DJing.
Examples:
80 BPM songs showing up as 160 BPM.
110 BPM songs showing up as 130 BPM.
At least 25% of music is incorrectly scanned for BPM.
I noticed that VDJ scans at least 6 songs every minute for BPM.... much too fast I think!!
I would rather have a program that scans 1 song a minute and gets the BPM right, instead of a program where speed seems to be the main concern.
Is there a BPM program that runs slow and gets the BPM data right. I don't care if it takes 7 days/24 hours a day to scan my songs.... speed is not important. I needs to be able to scan various kinds of audio & video files and get the BPM right at least 9 times out of 10.
Thanks,
Dale
Examples:
80 BPM songs showing up as 160 BPM.
110 BPM songs showing up as 130 BPM.
At least 25% of music is incorrectly scanned for BPM.
I noticed that VDJ scans at least 6 songs every minute for BPM.... much too fast I think!!
I would rather have a program that scans 1 song a minute and gets the BPM right, instead of a program where speed seems to be the main concern.
Is there a BPM program that runs slow and gets the BPM data right. I don't care if it takes 7 days/24 hours a day to scan my songs.... speed is not important. I needs to be able to scan various kinds of audio & video files and get the BPM right at least 9 times out of 10.
Thanks,
Dale
Posted Mon 22 Dec 14 @ 6:48 pm
locoDog
What is the 110 = 130 track? As for 2* or 1/2 bpms, don't try slow us all down because you don't know script.
Put these on custom buttons
set_bpm 50%
set_bpm 200%
Put these on custom buttons
set_bpm 50%
set_bpm 200%
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 1:44 am
Fruit
Analysing sounds and calculating BPMs aren't an exact science (and will never be 100% accurate).
VDJ engine is one of the best calculators I know.
VDJ engine is one of the best calculators I know.
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 5:27 am
groovindj
I agree with FRUiT. There will always be some tracks which cause computers to have issues.
The calculated BPM is an average, based on the entire track - so if the track has sections which are faster or slower, then the average will be different.
If you know these particular tracks are 110 BPM all the way through, then you can always correct them yourself.
The calculated BPM is an average, based on the entire track - so if the track has sections which are faster or slower, then the average will be different.
If you know these particular tracks are 110 BPM all the way through, then you can always correct them yourself.
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 5:34 am
jakovski
You also could use the TAP button a few times. VDJ sees if you tap half/doubble so it will change the BPM to the correct value.
Greets, Heiko
Greets, Heiko
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 5:40 am
Fruit
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 6:25 am
Don Moir
You guys are the experts with using BPM as it is something you use in your performance all the time and you have a feel for it, but I have a question from like an outsider looking in on it.
As mentioned it is not an exact science and there is a lot of research on it. Some classes of music do not lend themselves well to it and some music can have extreme variations in it. I think VDJ does allow for variable BPM. A lot of music also has a constant BPM.
When I was tasked with taking a look at this, I selected the more difficult music to work with in this regard as they were a better indicator on how well the code was working. My question is about music with a variable BPM. What I don't get is how some kind of average BPM in this case has any value at all. In the extreme case a single average BPM is wrong for the entire song. So I am wondering how you guys deal with this and is it such that you depend on a 'constant' BPM to such a degree that for at least some songs it breaks the flow of what you normally do. Normally I do not think this is to much of a problem but I can see how it could be.
It is quite easy for people to determine the BPM of any song almost instantly and with great variations, but with computer programs and with at least some music, not so much.
As mentioned it is not an exact science and there is a lot of research on it. Some classes of music do not lend themselves well to it and some music can have extreme variations in it. I think VDJ does allow for variable BPM. A lot of music also has a constant BPM.
When I was tasked with taking a look at this, I selected the more difficult music to work with in this regard as they were a better indicator on how well the code was working. My question is about music with a variable BPM. What I don't get is how some kind of average BPM in this case has any value at all. In the extreme case a single average BPM is wrong for the entire song. So I am wondering how you guys deal with this and is it such that you depend on a 'constant' BPM to such a degree that for at least some songs it breaks the flow of what you normally do. Normally I do not think this is to much of a problem but I can see how it could be.
It is quite easy for people to determine the BPM of any song almost instantly and with great variations, but with computer programs and with at least some music, not so much.
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 6:56 am
Fruit
Most of the time those are orchestral songs.
The bpm in not constant but there's one in the mind of the players, called 'average'. Once you find the average value you may still can beatmix it, but you won't be able to grid-mix it.
In some cases you could at least adjust the grid in the portion of the song where you want to mix-in the next song.
You could also pretty cut-mix it.
You may also mix parts of the song (intro / outro) where there's no heavy beat but only flat harmonic sounds.
Anyway, you must find some tricks, but it all depends on what song it is. T's difficult to claim common sentences without talking bout precise examples.
I think that's not really a problem, it is a dj work. The real problem is for example some RnB songs that do actually have a constant machine-brought BPM, but where the software will mis-calculate it. For instance the most common mistake in such RnB / Rap beats is to give a BPM that is 1.5x higher or lower BPM than the real one. Example, the song is 80, but the software found 120. Mixing with such a mistake in BPM will sound absolutely ugly.
I hope I understoud your question, if not I beg your pardon, sir ^^
The bpm in not constant but there's one in the mind of the players, called 'average'. Once you find the average value you may still can beatmix it, but you won't be able to grid-mix it.
In some cases you could at least adjust the grid in the portion of the song where you want to mix-in the next song.
You could also pretty cut-mix it.
You may also mix parts of the song (intro / outro) where there's no heavy beat but only flat harmonic sounds.
Anyway, you must find some tricks, but it all depends on what song it is. T's difficult to claim common sentences without talking bout precise examples.
I think that's not really a problem, it is a dj work. The real problem is for example some RnB songs that do actually have a constant machine-brought BPM, but where the software will mis-calculate it. For instance the most common mistake in such RnB / Rap beats is to give a BPM that is 1.5x higher or lower BPM than the real one. Example, the song is 80, but the software found 120. Mixing with such a mistake in BPM will sound absolutely ugly.
I hope I understoud your question, if not I beg your pardon, sir ^^
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 7:15 am
Don Moir
Thank you Fruit. It is one of those things that have been in the back of my mind for a long time and have wondered about it not knowing how in practice you guys deal with it. I am also assuming all calculations are correct and my question is just a little off topic about that.
Yes I think you understand perfectly and appreciate your perspective on it.
Yes I think you understand perfectly and appreciate your perspective on it.
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 7:28 am
groovindj
In many cases, an average BPM will be pretty close to the actual - because the variations caused by e.g. a human drummer will be small.
A "110 bpm" track may drift from 109-112, so the average would be 110.5 (not much out at all). Any old skool DJ that mixes by ear would not have an issue mixing it. The issues arise when people rely too heavily on the CBG and computer to do the work. :-)
Of course it would be nice if VDJ gave us a live BPM readout, so we could see variations as they happened....
A "110 bpm" track may drift from 109-112, so the average would be 110.5 (not much out at all). Any old skool DJ that mixes by ear would not have an issue mixing it. The issues arise when people rely too heavily on the CBG and computer to do the work. :-)
Of course it would be nice if VDJ gave us a live BPM readout, so we could see variations as they happened....
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 7:41 am
Fruit
Np :)
IMO this problem is slowly disappearing as musicians now record their songs in studios with metronomic tools to help them keeping the beat.
I think each song is a particular case, that is up to the dj to find a good way to mix, or not, with their actual skills.
IMO this problem is slowly disappearing as musicians now record their songs in studios with metronomic tools to help them keeping the beat.
I think each song is a particular case, that is up to the dj to find a good way to mix, or not, with their actual skills.
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 7:44 am
Fruit
groovindj wrote :
Of course it would be nice if VDJ gave us a live BPM readout
It did, before !
I believe they removed this "local BPM" value, dunno why, but I may be wrong.
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 7:46 am
groovindj
Maybe it was because the live BPM didn't always match the analysed (average) BPM and it confused people.
I think it should at least be an option, so those who want it can use it. IMO being able to see the variations as they happen would be very useful.
Giving VDJ the ability to monitor BPM changes would also ease the pain of having to manually create new beat grid anchors every X bars - the software could place new anchors itself, at any point where the BPM changes (ideally with adjustable accuracy %).
Knowing how easily and accurately Ableton Live creates warp markers, it really frustrates me how "behind the times" the VDJ methods are.
I think it should at least be an option, so those who want it can use it. IMO being able to see the variations as they happen would be very useful.
Giving VDJ the ability to monitor BPM changes would also ease the pain of having to manually create new beat grid anchors every X bars - the software could place new anchors itself, at any point where the BPM changes (ideally with adjustable accuracy %).
Knowing how easily and accurately Ableton Live creates warp markers, it really frustrates me how "behind the times" the VDJ methods are.
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 9:00 am
kradcliffe
Alcatech BPM Studio always used live BPM on the screen readout and it actually can be a help. Missed that option since moving to VDJ.
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 3:11 pm
wblair
I realize that I can create a couple of buttons to automate cutting in half or doubling a BPM rate!
The point that I was trying to make is if I rip 100 songs from 5 CD's and then have VDJ analyze the songs for BPM then I have to check all 100 songs to be sure that the BPM is correct.
There will be some songs that need the BPM cut in half, some doubled, some more that are off maybe 5 to 20% and the rest are correct.
There is no way of knowing just by looking at the 100 songs which ones are incorrect....that's why all 100 songs have to be checked against some database somewhere that lists the correct BPM for each song.... GOOD LUCK trying to get a listing of all 100 songs somewhere.... imagine having thousands of songs and having to locate each song's BPM on the internet somewhere to match against what VDJ says is the BPM of each song.
I realize that programs to check BPM are not an exact science, but it would seem to me that if it took longer to scan each song then maybe more songs would have the correct BPM.
There is no option in VDJ to adjust the rate it scans for BPM's ..... it currently just scans each song very fast and can do 100 songs in 10 minutes or less.
The point that I was trying to make is if I rip 100 songs from 5 CD's and then have VDJ analyze the songs for BPM then I have to check all 100 songs to be sure that the BPM is correct.
There will be some songs that need the BPM cut in half, some doubled, some more that are off maybe 5 to 20% and the rest are correct.
There is no way of knowing just by looking at the 100 songs which ones are incorrect....that's why all 100 songs have to be checked against some database somewhere that lists the correct BPM for each song.... GOOD LUCK trying to get a listing of all 100 songs somewhere.... imagine having thousands of songs and having to locate each song's BPM on the internet somewhere to match against what VDJ says is the BPM of each song.
I realize that programs to check BPM are not an exact science, but it would seem to me that if it took longer to scan each song then maybe more songs would have the correct BPM.
There is no option in VDJ to adjust the rate it scans for BPM's ..... it currently just scans each song very fast and can do 100 songs in 10 minutes or less.
Posted Tue 23 Dec 14 @ 4:20 pm
kradcliffe
I know my music and don't rely on VDJ to get it right every time. If it scans something incorrectly (double or half) as stated above I have a two keyboard buttons mapped to correct it instantly.
Maybe I'm old skool but I don't rely on the computer setting up the mix for me.
How is the software supposed to know what is a ballad at 64bpm or EDM at 128bpm?
Keith
Maybe I'm old skool but I don't rely on the computer setting up the mix for me.
How is the software supposed to know what is a ballad at 64bpm or EDM at 128bpm?
Keith
Posted Wed 24 Dec 14 @ 1:53 am
Fruit
wblair wrote :
then I have to check all 100 songs to be sure that the BPM is correct.
IMHO, that's also what a dj is paid for. Preparing, verifying, checking again, and then provide a flawless show is a dj job as well as pure mixing skills. It is hard, and takes a long time, but you will NEVER be able to completely rely on softwares, otherwise people wouldn't even need any dj for their parties.
Posted Wed 24 Dec 14 @ 6:04 am
the SOUND INSURGENT
KIDS.............they just don't wanna do anything now an days.
Posted Wed 24 Dec 14 @ 6:16 am
TonNek
I hate to beat a dead horse, but I've been with VDJ since day one and I haven't really had any major issues with bpm until version 8. I have songs that I know are 93 bpm that register at an odd 140 bpm. Now how do I know that these bpms because they show up right in all the previous versions, so I'm just curious as to why they are so off in this version, and will there be a fix soon or will I have to continue to use an older version when I need to mix.
Thanks
Thanks
Posted Wed 07 Jan 15 @ 3:58 pm
PachN
Did you try to reanalyse these tracks?
Posted Wed 07 Jan 15 @ 4:18 pm
