wickedmix
i think you guys should have a read here www.djconquest.com/red-makes-amateur
something to think about anyways :-)
something to think about anyways :-)
Posted Fri 18 Jul 14 @ 8:12 pm
DJ BoOhm
Fruit wrote :
Of course we should be able to disable the limiter (and have it a good quality).
I thanked someboby for a pretty usefull temporary trick.
I thanked someboby for a pretty usefull temporary trick.
Yes we should be able to disable it.
Posted Tue 22 Jul 14 @ 8:13 pm
DJ BoOhm
blckjck wrote :
I don't take issue with it being an option. I also don't mind that it's on be default. I think the autoGain should be set better. In my case, none of my 4 professional mixers have limiters. I do it with external gear, whether it be via my driverack or even just the limiters on the amps or speakers.
joxmitraros wrote :
Yes, the limiting should be used in case of error as you said but only if the master output is hot/in the red signal. I can add on professional Mixer, you can disable/enable the limiter. For me, Atomix Production shouldn't impose us to use the limiter if we don't want to use it. I respect them and i love VirtualDJ, but the limiter should be an option.
I don't take issue with it being an option. I also don't mind that it's on be default. I think the autoGain should be set better. In my case, none of my 4 professional mixers have limiters. I do it with external gear, whether it be via my driverack or even just the limiters on the amps or speakers.
Ya but we can decide if we want to use it or not. I want to have my own choice about it.
Posted Tue 22 Jul 14 @ 8:16 pm
djjohnnyrox
The limiter is there for a reason. Actually it's there for several reasons, but no need to go into that. One of the biggest gripes about virtual dj was the sound and how bad the quality was. You have "djs" turning the volume levels as loud as they can distorting the music and then everyone says. Oh virtual sounds so bad. By limiting the volume of the music it doesn't distort , of course the limiter comes in hard which will cause others to complain the software is making their music cut off or some crap like that. I think Atomix should lower the overall volume of the software so that the limiters don't have to kick in as much, but that's just my opinion
Posted Tue 22 Jul 14 @ 8:31 pm
DJ BoOhm
Yes I agree with you but for the old VDJ users, not having the limiter as option is hard. When you are using a mixer without limiter, you have to care about the uv meters on every channels and on the master to not going in red. If you have a limiter, it's the same thing, just the sound will be more distortioned than without. You chose if you want to use the limiter or not, we don't have to make it as the wrost function in VDJ8 but to make it an option. If you want to be helped by the software to have a good sound, good, if you don't want, it's up to you. I have to say that the limiter is not a help because you can damage your soundcard or speakers with it also. Limiter or not, it's the same risk for them. We should be able to activate and desactivate it on our own.
Atomix should add a gain range function for changing the gain value between 0 to a certain value like the pitch -10% to +10%.
Atomix should add a gain range function for changing the gain value between 0 to a certain value like the pitch -10% to +10%.
Posted Tue 22 Jul 14 @ 9:35 pm
djjohnnyrox
I'm not sure how the limiter could damage your sound card or speakers that is pretty far fetched. The fact is this if the limiter is kicking in means you have your volume levels or your gain levels too high. Music sounds good when it's loud. It doesn't sound good when it's distorted and if your playing louder than where the limiter is kicking in , it is distorted . Turning the limiter off will not make your music sound better
Posted Wed 23 Jul 14 @ 12:01 am
djles.co.uk
I'm liking all this debate to my sound system in my residency. It has 3 amplifiers, one digital that powers the satellite speakers all day with background music as it is a Pub open from 9am every day. Then on weekends, when it turns into a Nightclub, there are two analog amplifiers and a crossover, one is for the main dance floor speakers and one is for the sub bass. It's a bit of a mish mash but it actually works quite well. When all three amplifiers are at full volume the analog powered dance floor speakers are louder than the digital powered satellite speakers.
All three amps have thermal protection. If the mixer output goes into the red for any length of time the analog amp cuts the output for about 30 seconds but the sub bass amp and the digital amp carries on at a substantially lower volume. The perfect output level is to have only the first red flickering occasionally.
Last year when they started introducing bedroom DJs into the club I supervised them all and was constantly warning them about the output levels. Once they attempted to DJ without me being there, they were forever overdriving the system and maxing into the red on the mixer channels and the master (dunno about the output of their pirate copies of VDJ7, grrrr) then consequently losing the dance floor speakers :-) One guy who thought he was some superstar DJ never came back claiming our sound system was screwed up. It's all about discipline.
In VirtualDJ 8, since the beginning, I have had zeroDB = 0.750000 and have NEVER seen the limiter, EVER! It's in the Audio section, make sure Advanced is ticked. ;-)
All three amps have thermal protection. If the mixer output goes into the red for any length of time the analog amp cuts the output for about 30 seconds but the sub bass amp and the digital amp carries on at a substantially lower volume. The perfect output level is to have only the first red flickering occasionally.
Last year when they started introducing bedroom DJs into the club I supervised them all and was constantly warning them about the output levels. Once they attempted to DJ without me being there, they were forever overdriving the system and maxing into the red on the mixer channels and the master (dunno about the output of their pirate copies of VDJ7, grrrr) then consequently losing the dance floor speakers :-) One guy who thought he was some superstar DJ never came back claiming our sound system was screwed up. It's all about discipline.
In VirtualDJ 8, since the beginning, I have had zeroDB = 0.750000 and have NEVER seen the limiter, EVER! It's in the Audio section, make sure Advanced is ticked. ;-)
Posted Wed 23 Jul 14 @ 1:25 am
zacek100
I would like to put my word as well to have the limiter as an "optional" feature. Whether I should lower or not the overall gain does not cut it for me. I always preset the gain for a set for a recording, adjusting so that the last VU meter LED come on once in a while. Ok, so that gives me good results while the track plays by itself but as soon as another track comes in, as expected the overall level jumps but the current limiter only distorts the sound. The level goes up and down, or it lower highs considerably. In short, it ruins the mix.
Sure, they recommend to lower the gain even more to the point where 2 tracks playing will not hit the limiter, when this recommendation is useless for recording. The average sound level is 50%. Definitely the current limiter is more of a pain than helping my cause. Please make it optional and you will see more happy customers.
On another note, having a "limiter" forced on a software makes it look amateurish, professional software must provide the option to disable it and to even set an audio head-room options.
Sure, they recommend to lower the gain even more to the point where 2 tracks playing will not hit the limiter, when this recommendation is useless for recording. The average sound level is 50%. Definitely the current limiter is more of a pain than helping my cause. Please make it optional and you will see more happy customers.
On another note, having a "limiter" forced on a software makes it look amateurish, professional software must provide the option to disable it and to even set an audio head-room options.
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 2:22 am
wickedmix
headroom option = zeroDB
search in the options its set to max by default
lowering it to say 0.8 is not a bad idea
search in the options its set to max by default
lowering it to say 0.8 is not a bad idea
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 4:11 am
locoDog
zacek100 try using this on the master http://loudmax.blogspot.co.uk/
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 5:03 am
PhantomDeejay
Honestly:
There's a HUGE difference between a compressor and a limiter. I'm reading stuff from people claiming to be audio engineers that are against audio engineering 101!
So, without being too much technical, let's define what's a compressor, and what's a limiter:
Compressor:
A dynamics processor that DIVIDES the input signal by an X amount (called compression ratio) when it exceedes a certain level (called threshold).
Limiter:
A dynamics processor similar to compressor, that has A FIXED compression ratio set to oo/1 (infinity to 1)
The purpose of a pure limiter (also called brickwall limiter if you like) is to prevent the signal exceed the threshold point, NO MATTER WHAT.
Now that we defined the terms, ANYTHING that won't knee the audio beyond the threshold point is a COMPRESSOR, and NOT a limiter!
Audio engineers will often use compressors with a high compression ratio (20:1, 40:1 e.t.c) to produce a more stuble limit effect than a limiter, but that does NOT mean their compressor actually limits the signal on a given precise value!
And that's where it all starts about:
On the analog world, signal values can have positive numbers and they can exceed the 0db limit. So precise settings are not required that much.
On the digital world, everything bigger than 0db get's clipped and it ends up as distortion.
On the digital world a LIMITER (brickwall limiter) can be set to precisely "cut" (knee) the signal on the 0db mark, leaving ALL levels below 0 db untouched, therefore without altering the dynamic range of the signal without actually having to.
On the other hand, a sublte limiter (= a COMPRESSOR with high compress ratio) has to have his threshold level lower than the 0db mark. This means that if it's set to activate on -1db it will alter the dynamics range even in cases it doesn't have to. Also, it cannot guarantee that the signal will NOT exceed the 0db mark! It divides the signal above -1db but if the signal gets too hot it can eventaully exceed the 0db mark!
To make it more realistic for a sublte limiter to work properly has to have it's threshold set somewhere between -6 and -3 db with a compress ratio at least 20:1
This means that your sublte limiter will also compress a lot of your tracks dynamics without having to, altering the dynamic range of the track.
Modern music is way overcompressed anyways, and the last thing you want is to have another compressor on the chain compressing the allready compressed tracks.
Conclusion:
The Limiter on VirtualDj 8 is a brickwall limiter that it's purpose is to prevent distortion. It's not there to make the sound better. In fact, as a user you should not even "allow" it to kick in. When it kicks in it means you have overdone it and you need to step back.
Headroom, e.t.c:
Several users allready reported the "zeroDB" option that's the setting that defines the headroom. However this value is applicable only for auto-gain option set to "Auto". If you have your auto-gain set to disabled, or "Auto+Remember" the tracks will use your manual gain adjustments in the first case and the stored gain on the second.
How many limiters does VirtualDj 8 has and why ?
It has one limiter per deck, and one limiter on master. Why ? Per deck is to prevent distortion on the deck's signal by applying effects, using EQ boost, wrong Gain adjustment, e.t.c.
On master it's to avoid distortion on the sum of all live decks signal. If you fire up 4 decks playing on max possible volume on master, then your master would surely exceed 0db and distort.
RMS VS Peak
I left the more technical stuff last:
There two kinds of dynamic processors available. The "Peak" type and the "RMS" type.
The "peak" type processors process the sound by measuring the signal's peak points (aka the loudest parts)
The "RMS" type processors process the sound by measuring the overal loudness of the signal over a given time window (RMS value)
RMS type processors usually produce a more "stable" results (everyhting sounds about the same) BUT they cannot be used for "security" measures. An RMS type limiter will limit the overal signal ouptut to a given amount, but the peaks of the sound can be literally ANYWHERE!
On the other hand, a "Peak" limiter can be used for security measures, but the overal sound output depends on the actual RMS value of the track's recording. You can never expect an 80's track to have the same overal loudness with a modern EDM track without hitting the limiter, simply because their overal loudness (RMS value) has at least 6 db difference or even more!
Thanks for reading! :)
There's a HUGE difference between a compressor and a limiter. I'm reading stuff from people claiming to be audio engineers that are against audio engineering 101!
So, without being too much technical, let's define what's a compressor, and what's a limiter:
Compressor:
A dynamics processor that DIVIDES the input signal by an X amount (called compression ratio) when it exceedes a certain level (called threshold).
Limiter:
A dynamics processor similar to compressor, that has A FIXED compression ratio set to oo/1 (infinity to 1)
The purpose of a pure limiter (also called brickwall limiter if you like) is to prevent the signal exceed the threshold point, NO MATTER WHAT.
Now that we defined the terms, ANYTHING that won't knee the audio beyond the threshold point is a COMPRESSOR, and NOT a limiter!
Audio engineers will often use compressors with a high compression ratio (20:1, 40:1 e.t.c) to produce a more stuble limit effect than a limiter, but that does NOT mean their compressor actually limits the signal on a given precise value!
And that's where it all starts about:
On the analog world, signal values can have positive numbers and they can exceed the 0db limit. So precise settings are not required that much.
On the digital world, everything bigger than 0db get's clipped and it ends up as distortion.
On the digital world a LIMITER (brickwall limiter) can be set to precisely "cut" (knee) the signal on the 0db mark, leaving ALL levels below 0 db untouched, therefore without altering the dynamic range of the signal without actually having to.
On the other hand, a sublte limiter (= a COMPRESSOR with high compress ratio) has to have his threshold level lower than the 0db mark. This means that if it's set to activate on -1db it will alter the dynamics range even in cases it doesn't have to. Also, it cannot guarantee that the signal will NOT exceed the 0db mark! It divides the signal above -1db but if the signal gets too hot it can eventaully exceed the 0db mark!
To make it more realistic for a sublte limiter to work properly has to have it's threshold set somewhere between -6 and -3 db with a compress ratio at least 20:1
This means that your sublte limiter will also compress a lot of your tracks dynamics without having to, altering the dynamic range of the track.
Modern music is way overcompressed anyways, and the last thing you want is to have another compressor on the chain compressing the allready compressed tracks.
Conclusion:
The Limiter on VirtualDj 8 is a brickwall limiter that it's purpose is to prevent distortion. It's not there to make the sound better. In fact, as a user you should not even "allow" it to kick in. When it kicks in it means you have overdone it and you need to step back.
Headroom, e.t.c:
Several users allready reported the "zeroDB" option that's the setting that defines the headroom. However this value is applicable only for auto-gain option set to "Auto". If you have your auto-gain set to disabled, or "Auto+Remember" the tracks will use your manual gain adjustments in the first case and the stored gain on the second.
How many limiters does VirtualDj 8 has and why ?
It has one limiter per deck, and one limiter on master. Why ? Per deck is to prevent distortion on the deck's signal by applying effects, using EQ boost, wrong Gain adjustment, e.t.c.
On master it's to avoid distortion on the sum of all live decks signal. If you fire up 4 decks playing on max possible volume on master, then your master would surely exceed 0db and distort.
RMS VS Peak
I left the more technical stuff last:
There two kinds of dynamic processors available. The "Peak" type and the "RMS" type.
The "peak" type processors process the sound by measuring the signal's peak points (aka the loudest parts)
The "RMS" type processors process the sound by measuring the overal loudness of the signal over a given time window (RMS value)
RMS type processors usually produce a more "stable" results (everyhting sounds about the same) BUT they cannot be used for "security" measures. An RMS type limiter will limit the overal signal ouptut to a given amount, but the peaks of the sound can be literally ANYWHERE!
On the other hand, a "Peak" limiter can be used for security measures, but the overal sound output depends on the actual RMS value of the track's recording. You can never expect an 80's track to have the same overal loudness with a modern EDM track without hitting the limiter, simply because their overal loudness (RMS value) has at least 6 db difference or even more!
Thanks for reading! :)
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 8:25 am
zacek100
confused... how's this going to help with the VDJ8 limiter distortion?
locodog wrote :
zacek100 try using this on the master http://loudmax.blogspot.co.uk/
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 4:32 pm
zacek100
I think the majority of us understand the definitions, but it seems like the VDJ8 limiter is not behaving like a straight limiter. A straight limiter would cap all audio above a given level, we all get that.
But the VDJ8 limiter does not behave like that, rather it sounds like it manipulates the audio using different techniques, my ears have detected the limiter filtering mids and highs, varying the volume up and down, sometimes it sounds like the "filter" FX is being applied. A straight limiter should not do that am I right?
But the VDJ8 limiter does not behave like that, rather it sounds like it manipulates the audio using different techniques, my ears have detected the limiter filtering mids and highs, varying the volume up and down, sometimes it sounds like the "filter" FX is being applied. A straight limiter should not do that am I right?
PhantomDeejay wrote :
Conclusion:
The Limiter on VirtualDj 8 is a brickwall limiter that it's purpose is to prevent distortion. It's not there to make the sound better. In fact, as a user you should not even "allow" it to kick in. When it kicks in it means you have overdone it and you need to step back.
Conclusion:
The Limiter on VirtualDj 8 is a brickwall limiter that it's purpose is to prevent distortion. It's not there to make the sound better. In fact, as a user you should not even "allow" it to kick in. When it kicks in it means you have overdone it and you need to step back.
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 4:42 pm
wickedmix
@zacek100 the symptoms you are describing will lead us all to believe you have your gains set to high.
if the limiter wasn't there to curb your excessive gains it would sound much worse then what u hear now.
its really a mystery why lowering gains is such a issue? Lowering gains doesn't make you loose sound quality. If your worried about loosing loudness all you need do is raise the volume on your amps if that doesn't do it maybe your amps are underpowered for you situation?
if the limiter wasn't there to curb your excessive gains it would sound much worse then what u hear now.
its really a mystery why lowering gains is such a issue? Lowering gains doesn't make you loose sound quality. If your worried about loosing loudness all you need do is raise the volume on your amps if that doesn't do it maybe your amps are underpowered for you situation?
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 4:47 pm
locoDog
Set the threshold to -0.1dB and output to -3dB and you'll never hit the V8 limiter (ok you'll get some compression but it's much smoother than the limiter)
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 4:50 pm
zacek100
for live presentations, I agree, heck just turn up the master volume in the amps, but for recording is completely unaceptable, a track recorded at the volume level u r suggesting would literaly yield a track that is abut 50% lower in volume than a commercial track. Sure you can up the volume in post-editing but just like while peaking, some audio resolution is gone.
But that is not my point, my point is that the LIMITER should not sound like i am rocking on the volume and the filter knobs while the limiter is engaged.
But that is not my point, my point is that the LIMITER should not sound like i am rocking on the volume and the filter knobs while the limiter is engaged.
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 5:24 pm
zacek100
locodog wrote :
Set the threshold to -0.1dB and output to -3dB and you'll never hit the V8 limiter (ok you'll get some compression but it's much smoother than the limiter)
ummm, would have to try that...
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 5:25 pm
PhantomDeejay
locodog wrote :
Set the threshold to -0.1dB and output to -3dB and you'll never hit the V8 limiter (ok you'll get some compression but it's much smoother than the limiter)
Without knowing the plug-in (didn't have time to look) you are effectively telling this guy to lower the gain on his decks (or on master) by 3.0 db!
So, instead of using a plug-in, why can't he just lower his gains, or set a lower value on "zeroDB" ?
BTW: -0.1 is a very tight threshold even for a "real-time" brickwall limiter if the desired max output is 0 db. Usually a "real-time" brickwall limiter will have a threshold on -0.3 db in order to leave some headroom to catch up with extreme signal raising (latency on analyzing the peak and adjusting the amount of gain reduction it needs to do)
PS: On a typical compressor we have the following adjustments:
1) Threshold: The point that the signal will start getting compressed
2) Compression ratio: The amount of compression applied to the signal above the threshold (as I said on my earlier post it will divide the signal above threshold by the given number)
3) Make up gain: Since a compressor will always result a weaker signal than it's input, it offers a "make-up" gain to adjust the overal loudness after compression. However this gain is CONSTANT (it's applied even if the signal is lower than threshold and the compressor is not compressing the sound)
4) Attack & release times (which are not our points at the moment)
Setting the make-up gain on -3db and still hitting the built-in limiter once in a while means that even AFTER compression the signal is too hot, which by it's own means that the input signal is WAAAAYYYY too hot!
If anyone wants to use a smooth compressor on his master effect slot to "avoid" hitting the limiter often then a nice setting would be:
Threshold: -3db
Compression Ratio: between 1.2/1 and 1.5/1
Make up gain: 0db
With these settings you can still hit the limiter if your signal was going to get above +4.5db without compression! However it's more gentle, and it's a COMPRESSOR!
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 5:36 pm
PhantomDeejay
zacek100 wrote :
for live presentations, I agree, heck just turn up the master volume in the amps, but for recording is completely unaceptable, a track recorded at the volume level u r suggesting would literaly yield a track that is abut 50% lower in volume than a commercial track. Sure you can up the volume in post-editing but just like while peaking, some audio resolution is gone.
Have you ever witnessed a studio recording ?
Recordings are always made on "mid" levels with peaks rarely exceeding -9db, -6db top!
That's because you need headroom to mix the tracks. Also, your final mix should leave an additional headroom of at least 3db for the mastering process, but that's another story all together.
Anyway, applying gain post edit after recording, is a loseless process, especially if your original recording was made in the digital world directly and you don't have any hiss from analog sources, cables, e.t.c.
BTW: Recording on lower volumes allows you to tweak your mix and if needed to apply compression afterwards in order to bring the RMS volume of your track/mix to the desired level (That's only one part of the mastering process b.t.w.)
Recording on max level with limiter disabled would result on clipped sound. Reducing the gain afterwards on post-processing would NOT make the clipping go away!
zacek100 wrote :
But that is not my point, my point is that the LIMITER should not sound like i am rocking on the volume and the filter knobs while the limiter is engaged.
It all depends on how much you have overdone it and how. A limiter will "limit" the sound not to exceed a certain level.
But unlikely you turning the gain down for some "time" a limiter recalculates how much it needs to reduce the gain about 500 times per second (2ms window) During these 500 times different elements of sound will be on peak and will determine the reduction level. Also reduction is more noticeable when bass kicks in, but it usually makes highs disappear or sound dull, because bass is taking much more space on the spectrum (did you ever wondered why your speakers have a 200 Watts Woofer and a 50Watts driver ?)
With all respect, I would advise you to search for a couple videos on YouTube about audio recordings, distortion, compression and mastering.
Some times videos make things clearer than words, and me not being a native English speaker does not help to explain it all :)
PS: If you are up to it search for loudness wars too. It will really help you understand a lot about dynamics and how it all blends together!
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 6:02 pm
locoDog
I can't speak for the maths I honestly just plucked those numbers out of my derriere (maybe 0.3 linked would be better) but, it just works with little extra thought, all my tracks are just under the limit, when I'm working with 2 tracks I work the upfaders, but if I get lazy for me this sounds better than the limiter kicking in, yes I'm sacrificing some quality, so what. breakcore doesn't particularly need the highest quality.
Posted Mon 15 Sep 14 @ 6:15 pm
