Quick Sign In:  

Forum: VirtualDJ 8.0 Technical Support

Topic: Key harmonic detection accuracy not that great? - Page: 1

This part of topic is old and might contain outdated or incorrect information

Myself and a fellow DJ who also uses VDJ are finding the harmonics/key detection to not be as accurate as v7. Sorting by harmonic, some tracks sound not so good when mixed into each other where previously they sounded OK in v7. It's something that needs further investigation and checking against 'mixed in key' and similar programs.

Is anyone else experiencing a similar issue? I did a set earlier and was not happy with the key matching. Many tracks sounded 'off' Auto key pitching is off and all tracks were rescanned in VDJ8.

I will need to open v7 (v7 using the old database file) and v8 (new database file) at the same time and try to find some tracks that sound right in v7 and off in v8 (reported as a different key harmonic) to prove this though. Luckily I can send to 2 soundcards so hopefully this will be possible but may take some time.

BTW here is a comparison of various key detection programs including VDJ7.4

Mixed in Key latest seems to be the de facto gold standard right now. If there was some way perhaps to use Mix in Key to analyze the tracks and import to VDJ8...hmmm.

http://www.djtechtools.com/2014/01/14/key-detection-software-comparison-2014-edition/
 
Posted Fri 16 May 14 @ 4:25 pm
I would hesitate to say it's "not as accurate as v7" because v7 was dreadful at detecting major keys.

The comprehensive test that DJ Tech Tools did a while ago proved it conclusively. Out of 24 test tracks (12 maj & 12 min) VDJ 7 classed every single one as minor, getting all the majors wrong.

At least 8 seems far better balanced in that respect.

I did do a test a few days ago and found that although VDJ 8 still gets the bulk of keys wrong (compared to MIK), most of them are in adjacent keys.

Out of 12 tracks, VDJ 8 got 9 wrong (compared to MIK) but only two were completely different.

BTW you can use MIK to tag your keys. Once the tag's in place, VDJ (7 anyway) will read that, rather than analyse its own.
 
Posted Fri 16 May 14 @ 4:39 pm
"BTW you can use MIK to tag your keys. Once the tag's in place, VDJ (7 anyway) will read that, rather than analyse its own."

I tested using Keyfinder which is rated highly for freeware. Not as high as MiK but quite good for free.

Rather than overwriting the original key tag I used the prepend option to put the key and - delimiter before the comment. Although it shows up in the tag VDJ8 ignores it in the actual sorting and will only show it if you go into the tag editor and 'write' it. Meaning the VDJ database is overriding any tags. Obviously I would not wish to clear my database and start over from scratch. I just want VDJ8 to recognize the new tags and not try to rescan them if I do not want it to when loading onto the decks.

Before I invest in Mixed in Key (I would like to try Keyfinder first) I need to know that VDJ8 is going to show the actual rewritten tag key or prepended comment in the sort list. Right now it isn't.

I don't have time to go through thousands of tracks individually and 'write' the tags.

Any solution to this?

BTW I just tried 'load tags' from the right click on folder option. It still does not load and show the new tags.

EDIT: In v7 there was an option 'reload tags' but in v8 there is only 'load tags' which does nothing for updated tags.
 
Posted Fri 16 May 14 @ 6:27 pm
Where (which tag) does this Keyfinder write the key to, do you know?

There's more than one tag (other than 'comment') where the keys could be stored, and MIK gives you the choice. I configure MIK to write to 'InitialKey' and VDJ seems to accept that location.

I don't think I've tried bringing MIK tagged files into 8 yet, but I can perform some tests.
 
Posted Fri 16 May 14 @ 7:22 pm
djmrmcPRO InfinityMember since 2009
groovindj wrote :
BTW you can use MIK to tag your keys. Once the tag's in place, VDJ (7 anyway) will read that, rather than analyse its own.


I've also noticed that in my testing that VDJ8s key detection is a little off. I know that VDJ7 wasn't much better.

I use RE3 to detect and write keys (camalot style) into the tags and previously VDJ7 would read those as they were written and not change them.

Now when analysing tracks VDJ8 overwrites (Harmonics tag) in alot of cases the Key that was already detected with something else.

Is there anyway to stop VDJ8 from overwriting the tag? I want the keys that I have detected and written to the tags not the ones from VDJ.
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 3:54 am
djmrmc wrote :
groovindj wrote :
BTW you can use MIK to tag your keys. Once the tag's in place, VDJ (7 anyway) will read that, rather than analyse its own.


I've also noticed that in my testing that VDJ8s key detection is a little off. I know that VDJ7 wasn't much better.

I use RE3 to detect and write keys (camalot style) into the tags and previously VDJ7 would read those as they were written and not change them.

Now when analysing tracks VDJ8 overwrites (Harmonics tag) in alot of cases the Key that was already detected with something else.

Is there anyway to stop VDJ8 from overwriting the tag? I want the keys that I have detected and written to the tags not the ones from VDJ.


This!

Also I wanted to write the key to the comment tag instead of the key tag but VDJ8 no matter what I do (remove from db, move file to new folder outside vdj, add to db, rescan) does not update the comment field tag to reflect the new tag in the file. The database controls all! :(

The only way I have found is to use the vdj tag editor for each track individually, load the tag and hit write. But that is tedious.

EDIT:

OK this is definitely not right. v8 is getting keys wrong that v7 got right (or was closer to).

Example track = Insomnia - Faithless (Dannic Bootleg).

In v7 it is detected as Bm (10A). Playing this key on a keyboard against the track it sounds 'right'.

In v8 the key is detected as G#m (01A). Playing this on a keyboard against the track sounds 'wrong'.

Why is v8 getting keys that v7 detected correctly wrong? Sure it might be better at major key detection but it's messing up previously scanned tracks that were correct in v7. Can someone please look into this or am I going to have to start posting comparisons of tracks and their detections in v7 and v8 along with testing them against an actual keyboard? To my ears v7 had better key harmonics than v8 at present.

BTW for those without a keyboard you can use this Flash virtual keyboard in your browser and compare for yourselves.

http://www.bgfl.org/bgfl/custom/resources_ftp/client_ftp/ks2/music/piano/index.htm
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 11:29 am
DJ_Craig wrote :
djmrmc wrote :
[quote=groovindj] BTW you can use MIK to tag your keys. Once the tag's in place, VDJ (7 anyway) will read that, rather than analyse its own.


I've also noticed that in my testing that VDJ8s key detection is a little off. I know that VDJ7 wasn't much better.

I use RE3 to detect and write keys (camalot style) into the tags and previously VDJ7 would read those as they were written and not change them.

Now when analysing tracks VDJ8 overwrites (Harmonics tag) in alot of cases the Key that was already detected with something else.

Is there anyway to stop VDJ8 from overwriting the tag? I want the keys that I have detected and written to the tags not the ones from VDJ.


This!

Also I wanted to write the key to the comment tag instead of the key tag but VDJ8 no matter what I do (remove from db, move file to new folder outside vdj, add to db, rescan) does not update the comment field tag to reflect the new tag in the file. The database controls all! :(

The only way I have found is to use the vdj tag editor for each track individually, load the tag and hit write. But that is tedious.

EDIT:

OK this is definitely not right. v8 is getting keys wrong that v7 got right (or was closer to).

Here are example tracks. I am playing a key on a keyboard against the tracks to confirm the correct key (or correct harmonic range).

Insomnia - Faithless (Dannic Bootleg).

v7 Bm (10A) = correct
v8 G#m (01A) = incorrect

Daft Punk - Get Lucky (Pink Fluid Bootleg)

v7 F#m (11A) = correct
v8 G#m (01A) = incorrect

Why is v8 getting keys that v7 detected correctly wrong? Sure it might be better at major key detection but it's messing up previously scanned tracks that were correct in v7. Can someone please look into this or am I going to have to start posting comparisons of tracks and their detections in v7 and v8 along with testing them against an actual keyboard? To my ears v7 had better key harmonics than v8 at present.

BTW for those without a keyboard you can use this Flash virtual keyboard in your browser and compare for yourselves.

http://www.bgfl.org/bgfl/custom/resources_ftp/client_ftp/ks2/music/piano/index.htm
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 12:45 pm
It'd be better if you posted examples from standard commercially released tracks that more of us are likely to have, so we can try for ourselves/back you up/developers can test.

It's also more likely that there are alternative sources of key info online (e.g. musicians/sheet music) if you give examples from more obvious tracks.



(later) Tested with Insomnia - most of which are 10A except the Moody Mix which is pitched up slightly to 5A - VDJ 8 is saying they're 9B, 12B etc.

Only 2 out of 6 are correct (compared to MIK).
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 1:00 pm
I agree and will try to find some but I tend to collect a lot of remixes.

Beatport shows the key.

Faithless - Insomnia
http://www.beatport.com/track/insomnia-original-mix/1311992

v7 Bm (10A) = correct
v8 G (09B) = incorrect

For Daft Punk - Get Lucky (Original Mix) v8 got it right. But wrong for the bootleg/remix. v7 seems better at some of the remixes of tracks in the minor keys. v8 has the opposite effect and is better at major keys whilst being worse at minor keys I believe.
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 1:19 pm
groovindj wrote :
It'd be better if you posted examples from standard commercially released tracks that more of use are likely to have, so we can try for ourselves/back you up/developers can test.

It's also more likely that there are alternative sources of key info online (e.g. musicians/sheet music) if you give examples from more obvious tracks.



(later) Tested with Insomnia - most of which are 10A except the Moody Mix which is pitched up slightly to 5A - VDJ 8 is saying they're 9B, 12B etc.

Only 2 out of 6 are correct (compared to MIK).


How many did MIK get correct?

BTW I think it would be a good idea if the devs took several remixes of a track (making sure they are not pitched in any way and all are the same key as verified by piano key or ear) and trying to get the algorithm to get them all correct. Can you see my reasoning behind this? If it can get various remixes of a track right based on the main hook I think it would serve a more useful purpose than just randomly choosing lots of different songs. True you would need to do that too but I believe the way they are doing it (if not doing what I just suggested) is a bit ass backwards considering how many DJ's mix a lot of remixes. If it cannot match the key on the same song in different remixes in the same key/pitch then what hope does it have with other tracks? I hope that makes sense :)
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 1:19 pm
Forget Beatport! Don't use that as a reference!
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 1:27 pm
DJAVIPPRO (OEM)Member since 2016
50% of Beatport keys are wrong...
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 1:31 pm
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 1:31 pm
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 1:51 pm
I find the key detection in VirtualDJ 8 very accurate, and we did a long comparison with different charts and came out well ..

that being said, as long as you use ONE source for keys (not mix keys from different programs), the wrongs are equally wrong from song to song, and hence usually harmonic to each other, even if technically it should be a 7a not 5a..

Most of the other programs come out with a round 50% success rate - meaning its almost borderline a wild guessing, half of the time it gets it right. That goes for Traktor, Mixed In Key (even though in later versions they claim more), and all the rest.. But that wouldnt be a valid argument. As long as it gets stuff equally wrong, its also mutually correct to other songs it has analyzed (at least usually for same keys). So the practical accuracy is higher than just a brutal comparison to a charted key.

Anyways, I mix harmonics always... and very happy with the key detection. If its perfect, probably not, but for all practical purposes it does a good job
And thats what really matters (even v7 that ignored minor keys, it worked pretty damn good, cause if its 7A or 7B has little importance)

But i'll do a new full comparison, with some known accurate songs (and defo not from Beatport ) hehe
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 1:54 pm
The three main 'root' keys for Insomnia as played out on a a keyboard are D sharp, lower D major, F sharp and lower B major. Any of those will get you in the ball park but a G? Hmm. I don't think so Tim. v7 nails it on B major even though that article says it's D major. Either will work for mixing purposes. v8 thinks it's G. Granted this is a one off comparison but from listening both myself and my brother are finding it not matching in the same way as v7. Whether this is 'better' in v8 is debatable.
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 2:28 pm
dont think you read what I said.. as long as it gets other songs equally wrong, they are equally harmonic to eachother.. ;)
hence for all practical purposes it doesnt really matter that much

And no program gets it really good anyways, around 50 % success rate, but saying thats getting half right is a flawed argument (read above)

The key detection in v8 works very well, even though you can find some random example where the key is not same as listed keys by lable or what not .
(as long as it gets similar songs equally wrong, it will end up as harmonically correct within the software)

But sure, not saying its perfect, but does a good job ;)
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 2:37 pm
DJ_Craig wrote :
that article says it's D major.


No, actually it says Dm but I suspect that's just a typo because everywhere else it's clear what key he's talking about.
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 2:38 pm
metrixPRO InfinityMember since 2007
how can i user key lock whiteout master tempo?
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 3:54 pm
cant.. its kinda the same thing ;)
 
Posted Sat 17 May 14 @ 4:18 pm
67%