Supacon
I've been Video DJing with virtualDJ for about a year now, and I'm thrilled with the software, except for one major thing:
It's too slow.
In the old days, I remember having a 486 that didn't quite have the horsepower to play an MP3 properly, but since then, music playback has historically been pretty easy on the CPU. VirtualDJ, of course does a lot more, and my machine just isn't up to snuff.
My current machine is a Dell Inspiron 6000 with a Pentium M 2 GHz processor, 2GB of RAM, and a Radeon X300 display adapter. I usually DJ with two external USB2 hard drives connected, and I have a Conectiv (USB) for my sound.
Now, I wouldn't call this system old or obsolete, but sometimes the performance just sucks. When loading a song or video, it can finish buffering/loading relatively quickly (in under 20 seconds), but often times it will take more than two minutes... often times it's slow enough that it can't be buffered fast enough to play back, even, leaving bad dropouts. That's insane! If I am playing two videos together and crossfading between them, the performance of the video playback becomes so bad that video framerates drop down to under 1 fps, so things are very jerky. Sonique visualizations look cool, but only certain ones are smooth enough to bother with, and that's under best case scenarios. While running them, I get even slower buffering/loading of my music.
Even the text plugin causes things to slow down. Until I recently reinstalled the operating system, I'd periodically have a problem with the text plugin that caused it to freeze the video (it'd jerk back and forth between two frames) when I shut text off, and while it was running, it'd cause the computer to slow way down.
All this stuff sucks, but it isn't even (by itself) the biggest problem. The biggest issue is that when the song is loading slowly, if I try to play the song before it's done, it won't give me any sound, and you can see that it restarts the buffering all over again, which makes the waveform appear just slighty different enough that you can watch it reloading overtop of what it's already loaded. Obviously some kind of bug in virtualDJ... but if my laptop were fast enough to load it in a reasonable time in the first place, this wouldn't be so bad. But loading a song for me is excruciatingly slow and bogs the whole system down, so this is unacceptable!
What I'd like to know is the following:
-Am I doing something wrong that things work this slowly? I just finished reinstalling Windows, and it didn't help as much as I thought it would.
-Is there a significant bottleneck with my current system configuration? Could I drop in another GB of ram (for a total of 2 GB), or improve the video card from my Radeon X300 and see this situation improve?
-How fast is fast enough really?
I want to run two videos simultaneously while they are both loading, plus the sonique plugin with demanding visualizations and STILL get full framerates (~29 fps) out of the video/visualizations.
Videos should load in under 15 seconds while this is all happening.
-Is this even possible, or do I ask too much? What kind of experience do core 2 duo users with lots of RAM and high-end video cards have in this scenario?
Any answers to these questions from people who have been through this would be *MUCH* appreciated!
It's too slow.
In the old days, I remember having a 486 that didn't quite have the horsepower to play an MP3 properly, but since then, music playback has historically been pretty easy on the CPU. VirtualDJ, of course does a lot more, and my machine just isn't up to snuff.
My current machine is a Dell Inspiron 6000 with a Pentium M 2 GHz processor, 2GB of RAM, and a Radeon X300 display adapter. I usually DJ with two external USB2 hard drives connected, and I have a Conectiv (USB) for my sound.
Now, I wouldn't call this system old or obsolete, but sometimes the performance just sucks. When loading a song or video, it can finish buffering/loading relatively quickly (in under 20 seconds), but often times it will take more than two minutes... often times it's slow enough that it can't be buffered fast enough to play back, even, leaving bad dropouts. That's insane! If I am playing two videos together and crossfading between them, the performance of the video playback becomes so bad that video framerates drop down to under 1 fps, so things are very jerky. Sonique visualizations look cool, but only certain ones are smooth enough to bother with, and that's under best case scenarios. While running them, I get even slower buffering/loading of my music.
Even the text plugin causes things to slow down. Until I recently reinstalled the operating system, I'd periodically have a problem with the text plugin that caused it to freeze the video (it'd jerk back and forth between two frames) when I shut text off, and while it was running, it'd cause the computer to slow way down.
All this stuff sucks, but it isn't even (by itself) the biggest problem. The biggest issue is that when the song is loading slowly, if I try to play the song before it's done, it won't give me any sound, and you can see that it restarts the buffering all over again, which makes the waveform appear just slighty different enough that you can watch it reloading overtop of what it's already loaded. Obviously some kind of bug in virtualDJ... but if my laptop were fast enough to load it in a reasonable time in the first place, this wouldn't be so bad. But loading a song for me is excruciatingly slow and bogs the whole system down, so this is unacceptable!
What I'd like to know is the following:
-Am I doing something wrong that things work this slowly? I just finished reinstalling Windows, and it didn't help as much as I thought it would.
-Is there a significant bottleneck with my current system configuration? Could I drop in another GB of ram (for a total of 2 GB), or improve the video card from my Radeon X300 and see this situation improve?
-How fast is fast enough really?
I want to run two videos simultaneously while they are both loading, plus the sonique plugin with demanding visualizations and STILL get full framerates (~29 fps) out of the video/visualizations.
Videos should load in under 15 seconds while this is all happening.
-Is this even possible, or do I ask too much? What kind of experience do core 2 duo users with lots of RAM and high-end video cards have in this scenario?
Any answers to these questions from people who have been through this would be *MUCH* appreciated!
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 3:45 am
CanSpoilU
I'll tell you one thing... I actually spent $3000 on my laptop. Got an HP NW9440 Mobile Workstation. This laptop SMOKES!
VDJ runs perfectly on it. Not a single hiccup so far. Granted its a diesel laptop (Core2Duo / 2GB RAM / 512MB Quadro 1500M Video / 17" widescreen).
They have a version that only has a 256MB Quadro 1500M video card which is closer to $2000 (if thats more in your price range). These laptops are more expensive than other laptops because they are considered "business class notebooks". You might even be able to find something great for under two grand.
But man I am so happy I got this laptop. I am able to browse the web while VDJ is running live (which I am doing now). I can do other stuff as well (decrypt a DVD) while running VDJ. Just have to be careful I don't go nuts with it. The Core2Duo processors are a godsend.
VDJ runs perfectly on it. Not a single hiccup so far. Granted its a diesel laptop (Core2Duo / 2GB RAM / 512MB Quadro 1500M Video / 17" widescreen).
They have a version that only has a 256MB Quadro 1500M video card which is closer to $2000 (if thats more in your price range). These laptops are more expensive than other laptops because they are considered "business class notebooks". You might even be able to find something great for under two grand.
But man I am so happy I got this laptop. I am able to browse the web while VDJ is running live (which I am doing now). I can do other stuff as well (decrypt a DVD) while running VDJ. Just have to be careful I don't go nuts with it. The Core2Duo processors are a godsend.
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 3:52 am
Supacon
Thanks CanSpoilU;
Sounds like that'd make a big difference, with a machine like that. One thing I'm still not sure of is exactly how much impact the video card has on virtual DJs performance. I suppose with no video, it's a nonissue, but especially with visualizations, and using video playback, is there any difference between an entry level gaming card, and the top card on the market?
Sounds like that'd make a big difference, with a machine like that. One thing I'm still not sure of is exactly how much impact the video card has on virtual DJs performance. I suppose with no video, it's a nonissue, but especially with visualizations, and using video playback, is there any difference between an entry level gaming card, and the top card on the market?
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 3:56 am
CanSpoilU
I have learned video card makes a huge difference (when playing video obviously). I had a 2Ghz Centrino laptop and I tried running VDJ on it and it kinda sucked, mainly because it had a crappy video card. Once I started using better video cards (Geforce 7600 and up)... VDJ ran much better.
The Quadro 1500M on my laptop is equivalent to a Geforce 7900. Unfortunately... to upgrade the video card on a laptop you need to upgrade the laptop. I wouldn't get anything less than a Geforce 7600 IMO. I am not familiar with what that translates on ATI as I only use PCs with NVIDIA.
I would also go with the 2GB of RAM just to be on the safe side since VDJ loads everything into memory to play.
The Quadro 1500M on my laptop is equivalent to a Geforce 7900. Unfortunately... to upgrade the video card on a laptop you need to upgrade the laptop. I wouldn't get anything less than a Geforce 7600 IMO. I am not familiar with what that translates on ATI as I only use PCs with NVIDIA.
I would also go with the 2GB of RAM just to be on the safe side since VDJ loads everything into memory to play.
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 4:03 am
CanSpoilU
I also have no issues with being able to load a song and immediately play it (before loaded quickly). There have been times I changed songs at the very last minute of my list.
Song on left about to end in 10 seconds... I quickly load a song onto the right. Music starts playing from the right while the song is loading (no video lag). Then the next song on my automix starts loading on the left (while song is still loading on the right / while music is playing on the right). No issues.
So I can theoretically load two songs at the same time, hit play while they are loading and I am fine. CPU utilization jumps up to 60-70% while this is going on... but never hits 100%.
Song on left about to end in 10 seconds... I quickly load a song onto the right. Music starts playing from the right while the song is loading (no video lag). Then the next song on my automix starts loading on the left (while song is still loading on the right / while music is playing on the right). No issues.
So I can theoretically load two songs at the same time, hit play while they are loading and I am fine. CPU utilization jumps up to 60-70% while this is going on... but never hits 100%.
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 4:08 am
funnyb0nz
something that I have notcied when I work on my customers new HP and Dell laptops, is if you hit CTRL+ALT+DEL and look at your processes, you will see it usally around the mid to uper 40's. This is way too high, for a new computer. What I do for my customers, and recommend if your computer savy. Is to blow away the harddrive, do a fresh install off the windows xp cd, and than install your drivers, than install vdj. when all done you should be in the mid 20's for processes running.
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 7:59 am
CanSpoilU
funnyb0nz wrote :
something that I have notcied when I work on my customers new HP and Dell laptops, is if you hit CTRL+ALT+DEL and look at your processes, you will see it usally around the mid to uper 40's. This is way too high, for a new computer. What I do for my customers, and recommend if your computer savy. Is to blow away the harddrive, do a fresh install off the windows xp cd, and than install your drivers, than install vdj. when all done you should be in the mid 20's for processes running.
I actually ended up dual booting this laptop because I need to use it for my fulltime job. So I am not using the factory OS. I run a slimmed down version of Windows XP on here for VDJ with minimal drivers. Then I also have Vista installed which I use for everything else (all my apps, games, etc).
But yeah you are right, a lot of companies install a ton of bloatware on there. The one nice thing about the HP business line of laptops is you get minimal BS on them as far as apps go. Compare that to the personal/consumer line that has a ton of crap on there that you will never use.
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 9:28 am
Supacon
So, from what you guys are saying, it sounds like it would really help to upgrade video and memory on this machine. I'll have to contact Dell and see if that's even possible for a sane amount of money.
An intel Core 2 Duo would sure be a nice touch though, too... plus all the new goodies, Sata, expresscard, a couple more USB ports, etc.
An intel Core 2 Duo would sure be a nice touch though, too... plus all the new goodies, Sata, expresscard, a couple more USB ports, etc.
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 10:26 am
Niems
I doubt upgrading your Dell will sort out the problem.
MANY users have had plenty problems with VDJ and Dell, and the problems seem Dell related with no real way to work them out. I have seen many users starting over with a different brand such as the stable HPs, Acers ect.
Good luck...
I have built my own machine, 3 years old now. Its got a 3.4 with 1gig ram, and a gefore 6800 with 128meg of ram. Still waiting for it to stutter with videos or anything. It has never let me down, and it goes to show how low your specs can actually go, especially seeing as my gfx card only has 128meg ram.
MANY users have had plenty problems with VDJ and Dell, and the problems seem Dell related with no real way to work them out. I have seen many users starting over with a different brand such as the stable HPs, Acers ect.
Good luck...
I have built my own machine, 3 years old now. Its got a 3.4 with 1gig ram, and a gefore 6800 with 128meg of ram. Still waiting for it to stutter with videos or anything. It has never let me down, and it goes to show how low your specs can actually go, especially seeing as my gfx card only has 128meg ram.
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 12:14 pm
DJ Marcel_1
Supacon - would building a dedicated Small Form PC be Feasable for your set-up?
Only reason I say this is because desktops run sightly faster than Laptops and They are way easier to add to.
EX- video cards and sound cards.
I use a small form PC for My Set-up at the P.O. Your booth If I remember at the Globe wasn't to cramped and you could put a Small PC in there in a rack case - or on it's Side Really easy.
If you want some more info about parts and assembly help, P.M. Me I'll give you My email/Phone Number and I'll help any way that I can.
DJ Marcel
Purple Onion NightClub
Only reason I say this is because desktops run sightly faster than Laptops and They are way easier to add to.
EX- video cards and sound cards.
I use a small form PC for My Set-up at the P.O. Your booth If I remember at the Globe wasn't to cramped and you could put a Small PC in there in a rack case - or on it's Side Really easy.
If you want some more info about parts and assembly help, P.M. Me I'll give you My email/Phone Number and I'll help any way that I can.
DJ Marcel
Purple Onion NightClub
Posted Sun 11 Feb 07 @ 7:54 pm
funnyb0nz
supacon> I have a link to my setup on here within this month. i am now using a small form factor that will outperform any 3500 laptop on the market right now. And I only have about 1200. into the system. However that is with 1 80gb drive 2 500gb drives. Take a look at the link http://www.sassolutions.net/dj/djgear1.jpg Look to the left of the coffin, you wll see the sff pc. That is my Motu Ultralite sitting on top of the pc, (this however wasnt included in the price of the pc) You can use the onboard sound, just need to buy the correct cables and adapters for your specific needs. Please pm me if you have any questions. Oh the price included a 19 ws samsung LCD (I have my 19 dell hooked up in this pic) The dell creates noise through the system.
Posted Mon 12 Feb 07 @ 3:09 am
ConQuest
Get a Mac like quite a few other VDJ users are doing, including some of the more prominent Atomix Teamers and Devs. http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/
Run windows 100% natively if you have to. http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/
2 for 1 you can't lose.
128Mb VRam model = $1999
256Mb VRam model = $2499
- VT ConQuest
(Visual Turntablist)
Run windows 100% natively if you have to. http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/
2 for 1 you can't lose.
128Mb VRam model = $1999
256Mb VRam model = $2499
- VT ConQuest
(Visual Turntablist)
Posted Mon 12 Feb 07 @ 4:53 am
Supacon
Hey thanks for the offer Marcel;
Yeah, the Globe has a pretty nice booth, and if they weren't so bloody cheap, I'd get them to buy their own desktop system. Until I can squeeze a couple thousand bucks out of 'em for that, I'll be using my own machine.
I actually started doing Thursdays over at Stone Pony as well, and although they have a computer, I would doubt that it is suited to much more than playing an iTunes playlist or whatever. (They use streaming radio during the day there). Besides, it's not really mine to screw with because it's not my place, like the Globe is.
Given that I DJ three places at the moment, a laptop is handier... the Bank Ultralounge does have their own computer (which was supposed to be the globe's computer but that sorta got switched around).
Anyways, ConQuest, about the MacBook, the Bank's resident DJ, and a good friend of mine actually bought one, and he said that it runs things pretty smoothly. The thing that I wasn't impressed with was how poorly BootCamp supported some of the fancier features of the MacBook... nonessential things like the camera and lighted keyboard, which I'm sure will be resolved as BootCamp matures. But one problem I have is that the Macs seem to command a higher price premium for equivalent performance of other PC manufacturers... and I think I'd miss a right trackpad button. I am definitely giving them a look though.
Yeah, the Globe has a pretty nice booth, and if they weren't so bloody cheap, I'd get them to buy their own desktop system. Until I can squeeze a couple thousand bucks out of 'em for that, I'll be using my own machine.
I actually started doing Thursdays over at Stone Pony as well, and although they have a computer, I would doubt that it is suited to much more than playing an iTunes playlist or whatever. (They use streaming radio during the day there). Besides, it's not really mine to screw with because it's not my place, like the Globe is.
Given that I DJ three places at the moment, a laptop is handier... the Bank Ultralounge does have their own computer (which was supposed to be the globe's computer but that sorta got switched around).
Anyways, ConQuest, about the MacBook, the Bank's resident DJ, and a good friend of mine actually bought one, and he said that it runs things pretty smoothly. The thing that I wasn't impressed with was how poorly BootCamp supported some of the fancier features of the MacBook... nonessential things like the camera and lighted keyboard, which I'm sure will be resolved as BootCamp matures. But one problem I have is that the Macs seem to command a higher price premium for equivalent performance of other PC manufacturers... and I think I'd miss a right trackpad button. I am definitely giving them a look though.
Posted Mon 12 Feb 07 @ 8:34 am
ConQuest
Supacon wrote :
Anyways, ConQuest, about the MacBook, the Bank's resident DJ, and a good friend of mine actually bought one, and he said that it runs things pretty smoothly. The thing that I wasn't impressed with was how poorly BootCamp supported some of the fancier features of the MacBook... nonessential things like the camera and lighted keyboard, which I'm sure will be resolved as BootCamp matures. But one problem I have is that the Macs seem to command a higher price premium for equivalent performance of other PC manufacturers... and I think I'd miss a right trackpad button. I am definitely giving them a look though.
Macs have been proven for years now to be a much better value in the long run and have also proven not to cost anymore than a "comparably equipped" (hardware AND software wise) windows pc .
Now that users are becoming more dependent on their computers for different reasons (projects, entertainment, communication) in different environments (home, school, work), users are rightfully demanding that they're computers be secure and work reliably for an extended period of time as opposed to what they where getting out of their short lived and always problematic windows pc's.
On average Macs last 2-3 times longer than windows pc's (4-6 years Mac vs. 2-3 windows) and work reliably the entire time in comparison. No freezing, crashing, uninstalling/reinstalling, reformatting, malware, registry/.dll performance degrading issues, etc.), and come loaded with a bunch of high quality, user friendly software http://www.apple.com/ilife/ that windows computers either don't come with, come with only trial/demo versions of good software, or if the software is a full version, it's total junk that you end up wanting to uninstall anyways and so starts the registry/.dll performance degradtion issues along with everything else that I mentioned above.
The only thing that you get more of with windows computers is problems and you get to have a lot less reliable computer for a lot less time.. But you can have those problems on a Mac if you want, AND you don't have to worry that when windows takes a dump on you that it will effect the Mac side because Macs use EFI instead of antiquated BIOS.
"EFI and BIOS - Macs use an ultra-modern industry standard technology called EFI to handle booting. Sadly, Windows XP, and even the upcoming Vista, are stuck in the 1980s with old-fashioned BIOS. But with Boot Camp, the Mac can operate smoothly in both centuries. http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/
Yes, Boot Camp is still Beta but Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard will be out REAL soon and will have the finalized version included (will probably be called something else). The camera has been supported for quite awhile now though. You might want to tell your friend to update BootCamp to version 1.1.2.
To right click: Place 2 fingers on the trackpad and click the button with your thumb. ;)
Just in case you think vista is going to make things any better, you might want to check out the "Related Articles" section at the bottom of this webpage that overviews a GREAT interview of billy g. with Newsweek. The Related Articles links are from non-Mac enthusiast technology insiders and reviewers:
http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/12510/
Good luck on your decision Supacon! =)
Posted Mon 12 Feb 07 @ 9:56 am
i only spent half that on an HP i have 2 gb of ram (recommended).....
Posted Mon 12 Feb 07 @ 4:07 pm
yk23
I run a Dell XPS M140 1.73 Pentium D and 1 gig of ram and ONBOARD INTEL 915 video w/ hardware acceleration, it runs great . This system has the same chipset as the I6000. Try trimming down the amount of processes you have running. I created a 2nd hardware profile, disabled most of my services i.e. system restore. I got it down to 18 processes. The only time I notice it to be slower when loading videos is over USB, but even then its just noticeable. BTW, who keeps posting these sales brochures in here about Macs ? I still don’t want one, if that helps at all.
Posted Mon 12 Feb 07 @ 4:56 pm
Supacon
I didn't think that an XPS would have integrated video... aren't they supposed to be high end gaming machines?
As for running processes, I should have a pretty minimal set of software installed, as I just did a clean reinstall, and it didn't help much.
Of course, it is possible that there is a driver or something installed that is causing some problems.
As for running processes, I should have a pretty minimal set of software installed, as I just did a clean reinstall, and it didn't help much.
Of course, it is possible that there is a driver or something installed that is causing some problems.
Posted Mon 12 Feb 07 @ 7:25 pm
DJ ANGEL S
For less than 3k you can have a 2u customize rack built with your specs by Todd @ DJrack.com
Check him out.
Tell him Angel sent you
DJ Angel S
Check him out.
Tell him Angel sent you
DJ Angel S
Posted Mon 12 Feb 07 @ 8:08 pm
yk23
XPS- eXtreme Perfomance System. Its just supposed to be a fast system -just has onboard video on that system. I was thinking about a I6000 with a ATI card, but wanted a 14" screen.
Posted Mon 12 Feb 07 @ 8:31 pm
Supacon
Hey you MacBook users out there... is it possible to actually have the video output to S-Video while booted with BootCamp into Winodws XP? I have heard that currently, this isn't possibld without having a scan convertor or some other pricey and bulky piece of hardware...
I'm guessing that it's another update to BootCamp before that will work.
I'm guessing that it's another update to BootCamp before that will work.
Posted Tue 13 Feb 07 @ 12:35 am
