Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
@dev team
FROM APOPSIS :
When beatmatching or sync is used along with pitched (+-%) timecode, beatmatching is wrong in some cases.
[details]
If the pitch sliders on the cd players are not the same
lets say +2% on left, 0% on right, then if i press sync (or beatlock) to match the bpm, the +2% value of the left cd-player is taken into acount from the software, in a wrong way.
This gives a wrong bpm match.
Example:
A 100bpm song on vdj deck 1, and a 104 bpm song on deck 2.
If the "hardware" pitch slider on TC cd/vinyl-1 were +2% before i press sync,
then, when i press sync for player 1, the left deck's "virtual" pitch slider goes to (+4)+(+2)=+6 %, and this gives a 106 bpm ending in wrong calculated beatmatch.
I think that the software beatmach function must take into acount the +2% value
from the timecode, and apply another +2% internal (and not +4%) to mach the 104bm"
The issue does not exist if both cd-players are pitched the same, let's say both pitch sliders
on 0%, or +2% or whatever.
REGARDING TIMECODE CD ISSUES
Hope someone else can report back on what this really is about (I'm not sure), but it seem to be a problem with cuing on denon players (And probably Pioneer). Same goes for "other dj software", that released a fix for that recently...
What the issue is spesific, I dont know.. Sorry, havent tested that yet, but hopefully someone can aid more to what that issue is...
FROM APOPSIS :
When beatmatching or sync is used along with pitched (+-%) timecode, beatmatching is wrong in some cases.
[details]
If the pitch sliders on the cd players are not the same
lets say +2% on left, 0% on right, then if i press sync (or beatlock) to match the bpm, the +2% value of the left cd-player is taken into acount from the software, in a wrong way.
This gives a wrong bpm match.
Example:
A 100bpm song on vdj deck 1, and a 104 bpm song on deck 2.
If the "hardware" pitch slider on TC cd/vinyl-1 were +2% before i press sync,
then, when i press sync for player 1, the left deck's "virtual" pitch slider goes to (+4)+(+2)=+6 %, and this gives a 106 bpm ending in wrong calculated beatmatch.
I think that the software beatmach function must take into acount the +2% value
from the timecode, and apply another +2% internal (and not +4%) to mach the 104bm"
The issue does not exist if both cd-players are pitched the same, let's say both pitch sliders
on 0%, or +2% or whatever.
REGARDING TIMECODE CD ISSUES
Hope someone else can report back on what this really is about (I'm not sure), but it seem to be a problem with cuing on denon players (And probably Pioneer). Same goes for "other dj software", that released a fix for that recently...
What the issue is spesific, I dont know.. Sorry, havent tested that yet, but hopefully someone can aid more to what that issue is...
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 1:26 am
apopsisdj
Why i missed this post from the beginning...? Thanks Dev Staf,
Let's focus to Timecode improvements as we have the chance now and don't go off topic (bugpuss)
@Dev staf, you wrote:
The absolute mode in vdj is called "CD mode" (you can select it in speed-settings, along with 33RPM or 45RPM), and you can have true absolue mode in CD mode when you unchecked the "anti-skip"
- Nope, there is no true absolute mode yet, or it's not working as it should, and i've tried all the options.
At least with cd-players without vinyl mode (Pioneer cdj-100/200, even worst with others) there are problems.
I'll be more specific at my next post, i'm searching my older posts as i have report this kind of problems.
@djin Norway, thanks for the remind about pitch display, it's one of the existing problems.
For now as a general advice, don't try to overload vdj with "Smart" TC features, the way the timecode is now working is already "smart" and unique, but enough...
(I was the founder of the "SMART MODE" term btw...)
For now let's just see the basics:
-What is missing from Vdj and all other vinyl software have:
These are:
1. Absolute mode (true absolute no tricks.., so no loops, no cues.. that's the cost)
2. (True) relative mode
3. The Offset start thing.
4. Fix the scratch sound: it is not only "digital" but has POPS/CLICKS when scratching fast.
You can see easily the timecode signal distorted when this happens, even when the TC level is well adjusted for normal playback (100% quality)
Some filtering is needed there, probably the low freqs.
Let's focus to Timecode improvements as we have the chance now and don't go off topic (bugpuss)
@Dev staf, you wrote:
The absolute mode in vdj is called "CD mode" (you can select it in speed-settings, along with 33RPM or 45RPM), and you can have true absolue mode in CD mode when you unchecked the "anti-skip"
- Nope, there is no true absolute mode yet, or it's not working as it should, and i've tried all the options.
At least with cd-players without vinyl mode (Pioneer cdj-100/200, even worst with others) there are problems.
I'll be more specific at my next post, i'm searching my older posts as i have report this kind of problems.
@djin Norway, thanks for the remind about pitch display, it's one of the existing problems.
For now as a general advice, don't try to overload vdj with "Smart" TC features, the way the timecode is now working is already "smart" and unique, but enough...
(I was the founder of the "SMART MODE" term btw...)
For now let's just see the basics:
-What is missing from Vdj and all other vinyl software have:
These are:
1. Absolute mode (true absolute no tricks.., so no loops, no cues.. that's the cost)
2. (True) relative mode
3. The Offset start thing.
4. Fix the scratch sound: it is not only "digital" but has POPS/CLICKS when scratching fast.
You can see easily the timecode signal distorted when this happens, even when the TC level is well adjusted for normal playback (100% quality)
Some filtering is needed there, probably the low freqs.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 1:57 am
bagpuss
Off topic? - you must be joking - I was merely expanding around the issue in order to enhance the experience of timecode. it's called coversation, you don't ask something and provide the frame work for the answer.
I asked for two new software options to enhance the experience of timecode (for some users), I then remarked that TCCD could be packaged differently, again makes the difference between having a "cowboy" image and the image of "Proffesional software" IMO.
"TCV/TCCD whish-list for the new version": Yes thanks added mine as my other wishes have been put across by other users.
"bugpuss" - having wrote 1322 messages on this forum I think I deserve the proper "Bagpuss" but that seemed to be put in a sarcastic context "bug".
Off topic, off forum, bye.
I asked for two new software options to enhance the experience of timecode (for some users), I then remarked that TCCD could be packaged differently, again makes the difference between having a "cowboy" image and the image of "Proffesional software" IMO.
"TCV/TCCD whish-list for the new version": Yes thanks added mine as my other wishes have been put across by other users.
"bugpuss" - having wrote 1322 messages on this forum I think I deserve the proper "Bagpuss" but that seemed to be put in a sarcastic context "bug".
Off topic, off forum, bye.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 2:12 am
apopsisdj
[quotes from older posts]
[Cue problems with Cd-players (no vinyl emulation)]
...."there is a bad behaviour with the cue point.
I can set a cue and play it with the pioneers like normal.
But there is an offset, if i press the cue button in a short time.
Cue point is moved about 300-500 ms
I noticed that this happens if i press play, for short time 1-2 seconds then cue (to go to the cue point) and play again.
If i leave the deck to play more time, and go back to cue,
then the cue point is correct.
Pressing the cue button quickly with the rhythm to trigger the sound like a sampler always gives this offset"
[quotes from my older "Timecode VINYL antifacts" post]
- Scratching produces a distorted, CHOPPY, (and digital) sound.
(like cliping and cut sound internal..)
It's way WORSE with fast scratching, then the TC algorithm is so confused that the result is not scratching at all but a distorted, CHOPPY, sound.
-The Timecode algorithm (not the timecode itself) needs improvements.
Maybe some filtering at the low frequences, to filter unwanted frequences produced by the the dj's hands when he :
holds the record (motor on) or scratch or to reduce possible feedback or vibrations from the speakers.
It seems like the Timecode algorithm is very sensitive to anything that is not pure timecode, and it gets confused very easily producing antifacts to the final audio sound.
With fast scratching and fast backspins the waveform starts to "drift"
Example: doing a slow backspin like cue search will be ok, but with a "normal" (and fast) backspin the TC algorithm is loosing "informations" (again chopping)
The faster bspin or scratch, the more information it looses.
Drifting is because of the "smart" mode (no true absolute mode) OR because of internal cliping of the TC signal/make it loose timecode stamps)
-------------------
About the true relative mode option:
I think this will be the prefered mode in many cases like the cdj-100's cd-players, unless the cue problems can be fixed for the existing smart mode -wich i suggest to keep it- of course.
In a true relative mode, everytime a TC signal is recognized the deck start playing from the existing song position, without the software to try to sync the timecode with the song position.
Just go_to a cue point (shortcut) and press play from cd-player. It will start perfectly from that cue point.
Now there is always a "conflict" as the song position and Timecode don't match (after using a loop perhaps)
The only drawback as all other advanced functions (loops/cues) will be available is the lack of needle drop/seek, but this can be easily addressed with 2 shortcut keys.
-----------------
@Bagpuss.. (is this right?) sorry for the typo, is just an unknown word for me.
You have my respect of course.
[Cue problems with Cd-players (no vinyl emulation)]
...."there is a bad behaviour with the cue point.
I can set a cue and play it with the pioneers like normal.
But there is an offset, if i press the cue button in a short time.
Cue point is moved about 300-500 ms
I noticed that this happens if i press play, for short time 1-2 seconds then cue (to go to the cue point) and play again.
If i leave the deck to play more time, and go back to cue,
then the cue point is correct.
Pressing the cue button quickly with the rhythm to trigger the sound like a sampler always gives this offset"
[quotes from my older "Timecode VINYL antifacts" post]
- Scratching produces a distorted, CHOPPY, (and digital) sound.
(like cliping and cut sound internal..)
It's way WORSE with fast scratching, then the TC algorithm is so confused that the result is not scratching at all but a distorted, CHOPPY, sound.
-The Timecode algorithm (not the timecode itself) needs improvements.
Maybe some filtering at the low frequences, to filter unwanted frequences produced by the the dj's hands when he :
holds the record (motor on) or scratch or to reduce possible feedback or vibrations from the speakers.
It seems like the Timecode algorithm is very sensitive to anything that is not pure timecode, and it gets confused very easily producing antifacts to the final audio sound.
With fast scratching and fast backspins the waveform starts to "drift"
Example: doing a slow backspin like cue search will be ok, but with a "normal" (and fast) backspin the TC algorithm is loosing "informations" (again chopping)
The faster bspin or scratch, the more information it looses.
Drifting is because of the "smart" mode (no true absolute mode) OR because of internal cliping of the TC signal/make it loose timecode stamps)
-------------------
About the true relative mode option:
I think this will be the prefered mode in many cases like the cdj-100's cd-players, unless the cue problems can be fixed for the existing smart mode -wich i suggest to keep it- of course.
In a true relative mode, everytime a TC signal is recognized the deck start playing from the existing song position, without the software to try to sync the timecode with the song position.
Just go_to a cue point (shortcut) and press play from cd-player. It will start perfectly from that cue point.
Now there is always a "conflict" as the song position and Timecode don't match (after using a loop perhaps)
The only drawback as all other advanced functions (loops/cues) will be available is the lack of needle drop/seek, but this can be easily addressed with 2 shortcut keys.
-----------------
@Bagpuss.. (is this right?) sorry for the typo, is just an unknown word for me.
You have my respect of course.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 3:17 am
djallstyle
It would be nice if the timecode cd would allow you to use the cdj 1000 the way they were meant to be used i.e. cue points, scratches etc. being able to set & use cue points on the cdjs would be the best!!!!!
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 7:42 am
Mantahoe
This goes to the DEV TEAM. Scratching produces a distorted, CHOPPY, (and digital) sound.
(like cliping and cut sound internal..)
It's way WORSE with fast scratching, then the TC algorithm is so confused that the result is not scratching at all but a distorted, CHOPPY, sound.
With fast scratching and fast backspins the waveform starts to "drift"
Example: doing a slow backspin like cue search will be ok, but with a "normal" (and fast) backspin the TC algorithm is loosing "informations" (again chopping)
The faster bspin or scratch, the more information it looses.
Any feedback on this or what's in the works about this issue. Cause I think this is a major issue for TCV users.
(like cliping and cut sound internal..)
It's way WORSE with fast scratching, then the TC algorithm is so confused that the result is not scratching at all but a distorted, CHOPPY, sound.
With fast scratching and fast backspins the waveform starts to "drift"
Example: doing a slow backspin like cue search will be ok, but with a "normal" (and fast) backspin the TC algorithm is loosing "informations" (again chopping)
The faster bspin or scratch, the more information it looses.
Any feedback on this or what's in the works about this issue. Cause I think this is a major issue for TCV users.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 3:24 pm
apopsisdj
@Dev staff,
The issue about skipping with BIG files(or mixes)/hdd streams (i wrote about elsewhere),
is affecting the TCV/CD mode directly, it happens to me very often.:
EXAMPLE: Start the timecode (tcv/cd) while loading a track.
If the tcv/cd position is at the start of the song, it is ok, (the first seconds of the song are already in memory)
BUT IF, tcv/cd is (forgotten..) somewhere at the middle or end, (and that happens very often),
there is BIG chance of skipping the song that is "on air", because the timecode call a part of the song that is not in memory yet.
The same happens if i try the seek/search function from cd-player when a big file is playing from disk:
1. Load a track (memory) in deck A and play it
2. Load a big file (disk streaming) in deck B and use search/seek buttons in cdj-100's
--->>Deck A starts skipping..., and the club owner is wathing you...
Asio mode with low latency settings are more affected.
In any case Hard disk streaming is far from "smooth", like it was in atomix mp3, and like it is on all other programs i tried (FS, Mixvibes, Pcdj etc.)
So, another reason to fix this issue.
The issue about skipping with BIG files(or mixes)/hdd streams (i wrote about elsewhere),
is affecting the TCV/CD mode directly, it happens to me very often.:
EXAMPLE: Start the timecode (tcv/cd) while loading a track.
If the tcv/cd position is at the start of the song, it is ok, (the first seconds of the song are already in memory)
BUT IF, tcv/cd is (forgotten..) somewhere at the middle or end, (and that happens very often),
there is BIG chance of skipping the song that is "on air", because the timecode call a part of the song that is not in memory yet.
The same happens if i try the seek/search function from cd-player when a big file is playing from disk:
1. Load a track (memory) in deck A and play it
2. Load a big file (disk streaming) in deck B and use search/seek buttons in cdj-100's
--->>Deck A starts skipping..., and the club owner is wathing you...
Asio mode with low latency settings are more affected.
In any case Hard disk streaming is far from "smooth", like it was in atomix mp3, and like it is on all other programs i tried (FS, Mixvibes, Pcdj etc.)
So, another reason to fix this issue.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 4:28 pm
djqwikcut
"TIME CODE ACTIVATE" - what is the key to turn this on and off? that was a feature I was going to request.. say I have the system set up to use timecode but then I want to play for cocktail hour and use a play list and not time code. the only was I was able to do it was go into sound setup and change the sound settings..
also with time code CD's I would like to have it not DRIFT. what I mean is that I set an in point using my CDJ800's and when I press play the song is either before or after the start point I set. also when scratching, sometimes it wil lose its place and jump ahead or back in the track.
also with time code CD's I would like to have it not DRIFT. what I mean is that I set an in point using my CDJ800's and when I press play the song is either before or after the start point I set. also when scratching, sometimes it wil lose its place and jump ahead or back in the track.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 5:35 pm
apopsisdj
" timecode_activate" or something like this, create your own shortcut.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 6:55 pm
anewsome
djallstyle - you can already use the cuepoints, loops and other features of the CDJ1000. Just make sure your setup is using real absolute mode. CD mode + removing the option for skip protection.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 7:41 pm
djcity
Can the dev. team create a MASTER SEARCH?? This would be a search of all folders in vdj. right now, if I want to search for a song, I have to know what folcer it's in, open that folder, then search for the song. For example, I have my folders set up like my record casas were set up. A reggae folder, a Hip Hop folder, a House music folder and so forth. It would be nice to be in one folder and search for another song in another folder without having to open another folder.
I do not want the current search method changed, just a Master Search added.
Wadda you think?
DJ CITY
I do not want the current search method changed, just a Master Search added.
Wadda you think?
DJ CITY
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 9:17 pm
djbambi
makes sense, but add this request to the New Feature forum.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 10:37 pm
anewsome
djcity. searching the main database does search all folders.
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 11:00 pm
l_rids
Yay a new update is on the way!
The feature with the track offset at the beginning should be customisable to the user and I think the visual waveform should follow the entire movement of the platter. This just makes general sense for me.
Other than that the same features that anewsome mentioned with copying a track from A to B or B to A would be good.
I think the update should be simple and not over complicated with features.
Looking forward to the new update!!!
The feature with the track offset at the beginning should be customisable to the user and I think the visual waveform should follow the entire movement of the platter. This just makes general sense for me.
Other than that the same features that anewsome mentioned with copying a track from A to B or B to A would be good.
I think the update should be simple and not over complicated with features.
Looking forward to the new update!!!
Posted Thu 12 Jan 06 @ 11:43 pm
l_rids
Also if your tcv or tccd is already playing before you load a track into the player in vdj, the track automatically seems to start playing as soon as you click on it to load to the deck of choice. I'd like the idea that the track doesnt start playing until it recognises a backward movement in the record/cd.
Posted Fri 13 Jan 06 @ 12:56 am
djej
Please don't delay the sound update for all the other good ideas here. I think most would agree the sound for scratching is probably the biggest drawback and what makes some people leave. Great ideas though. Go Dev team, Go Dev team.
Posted Fri 13 Jan 06 @ 1:35 am
Mantahoe
I agree with u djej. the sound of scratching is the biggest drawback and what makes most people go to SSL. The other ideas are very good and will keep VDJ users loyal and satisfied without looking elsewhere for "better programs". But the scratch sound should be update #1. I beg of u dev team.
Posted Fri 13 Jan 06 @ 1:56 am
xgl_dj
That’s cool – I glad to see other users have the pops/clicks issues - glad cuz know I know it definitely not my pc. At least at the time I was reporting my problems with the pops/click I kept hearing it was my pc – no one would admit it was the software (the community was too protective of the software I guess).
The scratch sound was the main reason I switch over the djdecks as my main software. But if the dev team fixes this I would gladly give the software another try because despite the scratch sound issues the program is rock solid stable and has a few advantages over djdecks.
The scratch sound was the main reason I switch over the djdecks as my main software. But if the dev team fixes this I would gladly give the software another try because despite the scratch sound issues the program is rock solid stable and has a few advantages over djdecks.
Posted Fri 13 Jan 06 @ 2:32 am
djej
hehe...ok sound first.....but i just pulled the needle off a beatLOCKED tune..... and got distortion. Since we're whishing that would be a nice fix as well. More specific....beatLOCKED two tunes mixed them and forgot to shut off beatlock before i took the needle off and I always get some strange reaction. 768 Ram I have but i'm guessing that's where it happens. Seems like the same prob i have with video sometimes.
Posted Fri 13 Jan 06 @ 3:08 am
Dj Xeo
ok many many good points made id just like to give a shoutout for the features im looking for, most have allready been mentioned allready.
*Option for "play" on/off to be controlled by the vinyl, "if the vinyl is spinning, the song should be playing" i dont like having to go to the keyboard and press "P" when it dissengages
* Coppy / Clone song between decks, great feature
*absolute needle drop is nice and vital if you want to use cues on the CD player but its not so useful for most people. it would be nice if we could use the needle drop to do something more useful such as select between cues. eg if you drop it in the first third of the vinyl on a track with 3 cues it will move playback to cue 1. this is much more natural than pressing a button and i think closeley resembles the feature asked for by listen2 i think it was.
*sound quality/scratch tracking and signal. Its why were all here but come on it has to be said! Hats off to the DEV team for making it happen and good luck with your development!
*as stated in post above the current sound engine tries to sync samples and beatmatched decks to a primary deck that has stopped causing the noise mentioned. this would be great if the new sound engine sorted this out, not to mention used better quality timestretching (and im sure it will)
*lead in that both shows on the screen and can be changed to suit. so people understand whats going on if they pull back too far by accident and they cant remember visualy on the disk where the first beat was
and finaly, offtoppic but well overdue
*finaly put the option into settings window (not registry) to remove the logo from the video out. better still change the logo for your own as originaly promissed
*sound quality, sound quality and again for luck sound quality, above are mostly niggles, the single biggest desire of mine is to have realy good sound come out of those speakers when i boot up my DJ rig, we have faith in you DEV team!
This way of doing things is AMAZING i wish people from the DEV team would do it more often as i have requested in the past. 2 way communitcation is allways going to be more productive.
*Option for "play" on/off to be controlled by the vinyl, "if the vinyl is spinning, the song should be playing" i dont like having to go to the keyboard and press "P" when it dissengages
* Coppy / Clone song between decks, great feature
*absolute needle drop is nice and vital if you want to use cues on the CD player but its not so useful for most people. it would be nice if we could use the needle drop to do something more useful such as select between cues. eg if you drop it in the first third of the vinyl on a track with 3 cues it will move playback to cue 1. this is much more natural than pressing a button and i think closeley resembles the feature asked for by listen2 i think it was.
*sound quality/scratch tracking and signal. Its why were all here but come on it has to be said! Hats off to the DEV team for making it happen and good luck with your development!
*as stated in post above the current sound engine tries to sync samples and beatmatched decks to a primary deck that has stopped causing the noise mentioned. this would be great if the new sound engine sorted this out, not to mention used better quality timestretching (and im sure it will)
*lead in that both shows on the screen and can be changed to suit. so people understand whats going on if they pull back too far by accident and they cant remember visualy on the disk where the first beat was
and finaly, offtoppic but well overdue
*finaly put the option into settings window (not registry) to remove the logo from the video out. better still change the logo for your own as originaly promissed
*sound quality, sound quality and again for luck sound quality, above are mostly niggles, the single biggest desire of mine is to have realy good sound come out of those speakers when i boot up my DJ rig, we have faith in you DEV team!
This way of doing things is AMAZING i wish people from the DEV team would do it more often as i have requested in the past. 2 way communitcation is allways going to be more productive.
Posted Sat 14 Jan 06 @ 2:43 am
