anewsome
For some reason I am fascinated by auto-bpm counters, and specifically fascinated by how well they DON'T work. I know a lot of why they don't work depends on a whole lot of random and subjective factors but it seems like I am surrounded by BPM counters that rarely agree with what the BPM of a particular track is. I have a BPM counter in VDJ, one in my CD player, MixMeister and maybe one on the mixer (depending on where I am).
I would have to say that for me of the three primary beat counters I see every day, easily the most accurate I've used is the free MixMeister program, 2nd would be the beat counter built into VDJ and last would be the beat counter built into the Technics SL-DZ1200. Funny that the two most accurate counters, I can overide manually but the Technics is happy to be wrong and non-correctable - it won't even read a proper BPM ID3v2 tag.
So what's your "thumb in the wind estimate" of what your best and worst beat counters are for the kind of music you normally DJ with? Oh yeah, and for you vinyl purists, I already know what you're gonna say: bpm counters suck, don't use them, if you need them you have no skills, who cares which one works best, etc. I've heard all those already and I don't need your response. People who use bpm counters and have some constructive comments, I'd like to hear from you.
I would have to say that for me of the three primary beat counters I see every day, easily the most accurate I've used is the free MixMeister program, 2nd would be the beat counter built into VDJ and last would be the beat counter built into the Technics SL-DZ1200. Funny that the two most accurate counters, I can overide manually but the Technics is happy to be wrong and non-correctable - it won't even read a proper BPM ID3v2 tag.
So what's your "thumb in the wind estimate" of what your best and worst beat counters are for the kind of music you normally DJ with? Oh yeah, and for you vinyl purists, I already know what you're gonna say: bpm counters suck, don't use them, if you need them you have no skills, who cares which one works best, etc. I've heard all those already and I don't need your response. People who use bpm counters and have some constructive comments, I'd like to hear from you.
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 12:12 am
apopsisdj
Good question..
I think the free autobpm 1.1 utility is accurate, but i'm not 100% sure.
It needs an extra line in.
I think the free autobpm 1.1 utility is accurate, but i'm not 100% sure.
It needs an extra line in.
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 12:38 am
mp3jrick
Best BPM calculator....hmmmmm....tap tap tap goes the toes.....
I do them all manually, even the sleeves are wrong at times, and with VDJ going down to a 1/10th of a bpm it finds more mistakes than it creates for me.
It's guilty of 1/2's and doubles however....
I do them all manually, even the sleeves are wrong at times, and with VDJ going down to a 1/10th of a bpm it finds more mistakes than it creates for me.
It's guilty of 1/2's and doubles however....
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 12:45 am
Dj Xeo
cant they just rip off the code for mix meister and not say anyting lol. would make me tons happer!
or find a way to let the ID3 bpm info writen by mixmeister be used to help vdj find its bpm.
would love this so much i hate wrong bpms fucking up a mix when it looks right at the start, i dont have time to check everything first because i sometimes mix up my set realy fast to boost the atmosphere like only 30 secs of each track not enough time to set anchor points etc.
or find a way to let the ID3 bpm info writen by mixmeister be used to help vdj find its bpm.
would love this so much i hate wrong bpms fucking up a mix when it looks right at the start, i dont have time to check everything first because i sometimes mix up my set realy fast to boost the atmosphere like only 30 secs of each track not enough time to set anchor points etc.
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 1:53 am
bagpuss
Mixmeister is a great one for sure, VDJ not so far behind, I do think it's easier for those with musical knowledge to work out what is realistic or not, you have the 2 different counters in VDJ, generally one of them is right, and you shold be knowledgeable enough to work out which one it is, i'm not talking about halving and doubling which should be seen immediately, especially in pop/rock/hip hop music.
If I close my eyes and listen to a random track I can claculate roughly what BPM it is, perhaps give or take 2-3 BPM, but this is a good estimate, and when you have the option to halve, double and use alternative counters (like VDJ with 2 different kinds) it is more often than not easy to find a 99-100% correct bpm, unfortunately for me it's those 99% correct ones that are the problem, but I only have about 10 of them amoungst a collection of over 1000, so no real problem, I don't further seek the development of the BPM engine in VDJ, although if it was improved I wouldn't complain.
The thing is, if you use the waveforms too you can see the drift early on as it happens (even by ear it is often easy), and with a controller you can re-allign with the jog and pitch within secounds usually, but I must admit, on rare occasions I can get into tricky mixing situations because of "hard" songs with incorrect BPM's.
So best BPM: Mixmeister (agreed)
secound: VDJ
Ultimately, doesn't make much difference.
If I close my eyes and listen to a random track I can claculate roughly what BPM it is, perhaps give or take 2-3 BPM, but this is a good estimate, and when you have the option to halve, double and use alternative counters (like VDJ with 2 different kinds) it is more often than not easy to find a 99-100% correct bpm, unfortunately for me it's those 99% correct ones that are the problem, but I only have about 10 of them amoungst a collection of over 1000, so no real problem, I don't further seek the development of the BPM engine in VDJ, although if it was improved I wouldn't complain.
The thing is, if you use the waveforms too you can see the drift early on as it happens (even by ear it is often easy), and with a controller you can re-allign with the jog and pitch within secounds usually, but I must admit, on rare occasions I can get into tricky mixing situations because of "hard" songs with incorrect BPM's.
So best BPM: Mixmeister (agreed)
secound: VDJ
Ultimately, doesn't make much difference.
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 2:07 am
anewsome
If I am not mistaken VDJ *will* in fact read a ID3v2 BPM tag,.. am I right? Can someone confirm this?
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 3:42 am
Dj Xeo
lol wel if it can please someone tell me how because i did try 'read ID£ tag info' or hatever its all turned on and u can get mixMeister bpm thinggy to exprot to the ID3 so why does it keep analygint the perfectly computed songs that MixMeister should have allready worked out. would save me a load of hassle if vdj took hints on bpm instead of guessing accress the whole range usualy getting it totaly wrong i may add,i dont know waht kind of music everyone else spins but it rarely gets the bmp correct for me, i ahve resorted to adding coments like 'BPM actualy correct' for those songs i have personlay ensured are properly mapped.
again: i have never put a song into mix meister (that has no drift) that it has got wrong so please please please VDJ team decomplile and reverse engeneer the code for it or atlest study it and take notes if your etchics bind you to that. EU law actualy endorses reverse engeneering for study and compatibility etc. Oh and while your at it fix the time stretching!
again: i have never put a song into mix meister (that has no drift) that it has got wrong so please please please VDJ team decomplile and reverse engeneer the code for it or atlest study it and take notes if your etchics bind you to that. EU law actualy endorses reverse engeneering for study and compatibility etc. Oh and while your at it fix the time stretching!
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 4:31 am
anewsome
I seriously doubt that anything useful can be gained from attempting to reverse engineer MixMeister's free BPM analyzer. VDJ may someday improve it's BPM counter, but it won't be as a result of reverse engineering anything from MixMeister. I would not count on any BPM counter improvements though, since the VDJ BPM counter works fine for the people that use it most,.. dance, techno, trance, house music DJs. VDJ rarely fails with this kind of music. It's the Hip-Hop, R&B, Reggae and so on that trips it up.
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 6:01 pm
apopsisdj
I agree !,
take a look at this idea,
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/41036/New_features/BPM_Analyze_improvement___.html
maybe its a solution, what do you think ?
take a look at this idea,
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/41036/New_features/BPM_Analyze_improvement___.html
maybe its a solution, what do you think ?
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 6:28 pm
anewsome
Apopsis, that's not a bad idea really.
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 6:54 pm
acw_dj
You will never get a BPM analyzer which is 100% accurate for all music. The problem is the concept of measure songs with BPMs which is the real problem. Not all the music got BEATS in it, I mean real beats, whit silence or piano solos or guitar, they are no beats in there, so BPMs are useless... The real problem is we have to measure music not beats.
I'm doing a manual measure of my ballads and some other (reggaeton, hip hop, fast rock songs) because BPMs are NOT accurate. I have a manual technique to get a measure of songs that get close to do a real good mixes ( I do this since 1980).
When I get finnish the documentation of it, I advise you.
I'm doing a manual measure of my ballads and some other (reggaeton, hip hop, fast rock songs) because BPMs are NOT accurate. I have a manual technique to get a measure of songs that get close to do a real good mixes ( I do this since 1980).
When I get finnish the documentation of it, I advise you.
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 6:57 pm
antileon
Got me thinking about the Numark CDN 88 cd player. I was suprised how accurate it was compared to Denon's, pioneer's etc. (just my thoughts). I kinda miss it. One more thing, as probably mentioned earlier so many times:
NO BPM COUNTER IN THE WORLD IS 100% ACCURATE.
Just a pointer to all those who think/belive they are, and complains when they are not.
NO BPM COUNTER IN THE WORLD IS 100% ACCURATE.
Just a pointer to all those who think/belive they are, and complains when they are not.
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 7:27 pm
anewsome
Liek mp3rick said, my tap tap tapper is pretty accurate with any kind of music. Problem is, for the tapper to be really usefull,.. the auto-counter needs to take an input. VDJ does this fine with the manual beat tap,.. I use that ALL THE TIME. MixMeister doesn't allow tap. My DZ1200 doesn't allow tap correction. Too bad since this really helps match beats of a song fast, when the auto bpm falls down.
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 8:47 pm
Killabee44
Anewsome,
I would have to agree with Apopsis. The Autobpm 1.1 engine has got to be the best I have ever tried. Even better than the ones mentioned above. Check it out and see for yourself.
Killabee44
I would have to agree with Apopsis. The Autobpm 1.1 engine has got to be the best I have ever tried. Even better than the ones mentioned above. Check it out and see for yourself.
Killabee44
Posted Tue 13 Sep 05 @ 10:29 pm
kamakuakane
What ever happened to the good old days of vinyl, when you figured out the BPM by a watch with a second hand and you counted how many beats in 15 seconds. It was not exactly accurate, but it provided a good estimate. If you had the talent you had no problems beat matching the songs, no fancy beat counters. To this day I do not rely on BPM counters. If the BPM are accurate and the line up, so be it. Otherwise, I use this nifty invention called hearing to align the beats. BPM counters make life simpler when they work, but nothing can beat the ears.
Posted Wed 14 Sep 05 @ 5:29 am
anewsome
From the original post:
Oh yeah, and for you vinyl purists, I already know what you're gonna say: bpm counters suck, don't use them, if you need them you have no skills, who cares which one works best, etc. I've heard all those already and I don't need your response. People who use bpm counters and have some constructive comments, I'd like to hear from you.
Oh yeah, and for you vinyl purists, I already know what you're gonna say: bpm counters suck, don't use them, if you need them you have no skills, who cares which one works best, etc. I've heard all those already and I don't need your response. People who use bpm counters and have some constructive comments, I'd like to hear from you.
Posted Wed 14 Sep 05 @ 5:35 am
kamakuakane
I am by no means a vinyl purist, the only time I use vinyl is to transfer it to the computer & CD. I love beat counters but do not rely on them simply because they are not 100% accurate.
Posted Wed 14 Sep 05 @ 5:57 am
bagpuss
Like I said before, and this is especially true for producers who listen to music with a more 'technical' ear, you can estimate very well by listening to just a few bars, what the bpm range is, for example: I here a house song on the radio, and within 5-10 seconds I could say this song is between 126-128bpm, sometimes i've been known to get them dead on!.
However, generally the bpm counter is more specific and often more accurate than the ear it's self, as it can often pin point decimal figures, for example: 127.13 BPM, no ear could determine that with an estimate, and if you have this figure for a house song, it is likely to be very accurate.
The point is, this is just a figure, and should be taken as such, it is ultimately the alignment and beat matching that you do by ear to get the best results, and you may match 2 beats perfectly, whether you knew the bpm was 127BPM on both decks or not, it is irrelevant, the purpose of the bpm counter is only to be used as a tool, to see what figure you get on the bpm counter, confer that result with your own ears, then to act on what your mind is telling you.
More often than not the BPM counter and your ears can work Bi-laterally. It's like a calculater in a sense, if you input 2+2 and the answer is 40, then you SHOULD know that this figure is incorrect, and then you know you have to revert to manual calculation or (in the case of music) trial and error beat mixing.
The bottom line is: make use of both!, they are both useful tools, but know never to neglect your senses, as when trained, these are the best tools you've got, and ever likely to have.
However, generally the bpm counter is more specific and often more accurate than the ear it's self, as it can often pin point decimal figures, for example: 127.13 BPM, no ear could determine that with an estimate, and if you have this figure for a house song, it is likely to be very accurate.
The point is, this is just a figure, and should be taken as such, it is ultimately the alignment and beat matching that you do by ear to get the best results, and you may match 2 beats perfectly, whether you knew the bpm was 127BPM on both decks or not, it is irrelevant, the purpose of the bpm counter is only to be used as a tool, to see what figure you get on the bpm counter, confer that result with your own ears, then to act on what your mind is telling you.
More often than not the BPM counter and your ears can work Bi-laterally. It's like a calculater in a sense, if you input 2+2 and the answer is 40, then you SHOULD know that this figure is incorrect, and then you know you have to revert to manual calculation or (in the case of music) trial and error beat mixing.
The bottom line is: make use of both!, they are both useful tools, but know never to neglect your senses, as when trained, these are the best tools you've got, and ever likely to have.
Posted Wed 14 Sep 05 @ 1:06 pm
listen2
well in my 10+ years of mixing i started out not using BPM at all, i would just pop on a song and try and match it up, if it don't work ok then on to the next. Depending on what style of music you were playing is what made it easier, dance music is always on an average of 130+/- so matching that is very simple, on the other hand hip hop varies greatly, some in 70bpm others can get slightly over 100bpm. I still never paid attention to BPM until i was mixing on my pc, once the digital aspect came into play thats when i really started using them. As of now i can hear a song and quickly determine within 8-10 BPM what it might be and i am usually right :) but with VDJ i don't even do that, i just go thru and double check what the pc came up with #'s, and thats mostly correct. As a back up plan i'd go with mixmeister, it is right 9 out 10 times and the 10th is usually just a double count.
Posted Wed 14 Sep 05 @ 3:03 pm
mp3jrick
You can tell at a glance if the program has picked up the right bpm just by looking at the anchors.
Every 4th beat you should see a large square.
If you don't, it's off.
There's lots of songs that skip or carry a beat that the program will not see and therefore not count.
Thus...the error in the count.
As I rip I put the bpm right next to the artist in the tag, so it appears right next to the program bpm column. This is a quick way to know if it's off 1/2 or doubled and quickly remedied.
I load every track, cue it and check the bpm before I play it live anyway.
Work yes, but done once and backed up it's worth it.
None of them are 100% imo, even MM screws it up now and then.
Every 4th beat you should see a large square.
If you don't, it's off.
There's lots of songs that skip or carry a beat that the program will not see and therefore not count.
Thus...the error in the count.
As I rip I put the bpm right next to the artist in the tag, so it appears right next to the program bpm column. This is a quick way to know if it's off 1/2 or doubled and quickly remedied.
I load every track, cue it and check the bpm before I play it live anyway.
Work yes, but done once and backed up it's worth it.
None of them are 100% imo, even MM screws it up now and then.
Posted Wed 14 Sep 05 @ 4:55 pm
