VDJ Ron
OK so I'm sure that I will outrage some forum members by buying Behringer equipment.
The item in question is an Inuke 3000 amplifier which weighs 3.2kg, supplies 1000W RMS into 2ohms per channel, and cost's £188. It seems little short of of the stuff of my dreams.
We're all used to the class A/B heavy amplifiers but class D, H and G seem to be changing our world.
The new types of amplifier are often in powered speakers due to their light weight.
This has caused me to think about PA systems.
A standard disco rig has two tops, and two subs each of which may contain an amplifier. Does this not stink of redundant components, and stupidity?
These new types of amplifier are small, powerful, can be lifted with one finger, and just one can drive a whole system.
Does this mean powered speakers are going in the dustbin of history?
The item in question is an Inuke 3000 amplifier which weighs 3.2kg, supplies 1000W RMS into 2ohms per channel, and cost's £188. It seems little short of of the stuff of my dreams.
We're all used to the class A/B heavy amplifiers but class D, H and G seem to be changing our world.
The new types of amplifier are often in powered speakers due to their light weight.
This has caused me to think about PA systems.
A standard disco rig has two tops, and two subs each of which may contain an amplifier. Does this not stink of redundant components, and stupidity?
These new types of amplifier are small, powerful, can be lifted with one finger, and just one can drive a whole system.
Does this mean powered speakers are going in the dustbin of history?
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 4:44 pm
Adion
The small size, weight and cost actually makes it easier to create powered speakers with class d amplifiers as well.
There are things to be said for both, but one advantage of powered speakers is that they can have a separate amplifier for each of the drivers, which means the crossover filters can be designed with passive components.
Passive crossovers allow for steeper filters, and they are not affected by the power drawn by each of the drivers so their quality is typically better as well.
There are things to be said for both, but one advantage of powered speakers is that they can have a separate amplifier for each of the drivers, which means the crossover filters can be designed with passive components.
Passive crossovers allow for steeper filters, and they are not affected by the power drawn by each of the drivers so their quality is typically better as well.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 5:20 pm
VDJ Ron
Hi Adion
Quote "which means the crossover filters can be designed with passive components"
I don't really follow this point.
I use Peavey Impulse 1012 tops with 1015 subs, all at 500W RMS and 4 ohm. My subs contain passive crossovers which I can use should I choose. If I wish I can use an active crossover, or the internal crossover in my Peavey PV1500 amplifier, and bi amp my system.
I'm falling out of love with Peavey. Their IPR1600 class D amplifiers are full of useless pretty blue led's. I hate things which are just for show, and have no function. Along with this they appear to be in retreat, having closed their UK service center. I nearly bought a Crown XPS 1500/2000.
Behringer seem to be at the forefront of this new amplifier technology. I believe they even own a lot of relevant intellectual property.
Quote "which means the crossover filters can be designed with passive components"
I don't really follow this point.
I use Peavey Impulse 1012 tops with 1015 subs, all at 500W RMS and 4 ohm. My subs contain passive crossovers which I can use should I choose. If I wish I can use an active crossover, or the internal crossover in my Peavey PV1500 amplifier, and bi amp my system.
I'm falling out of love with Peavey. Their IPR1600 class D amplifiers are full of useless pretty blue led's. I hate things which are just for show, and have no function. Along with this they appear to be in retreat, having closed their UK service center. I nearly bought a Crown XPS 1500/2000.
Behringer seem to be at the forefront of this new amplifier technology. I believe they even own a lot of relevant intellectual property.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 5:50 pm
VDJ Ron
Peavey may be mistaken in moving away of late from 4 to 8 ohm speakers.
The new 2 ohm capable, cheap, powerful, lightweight amplifiers are making 4 ohm passive plastic speakers very interesting.
I've been using 4 ohm speakers since the 90's.
It's getting a little difficult to get Peavey spares at the moment.
The new 2 ohm capable, cheap, powerful, lightweight amplifiers are making 4 ohm passive plastic speakers very interesting.
I've been using 4 ohm speakers since the 90's.
It's getting a little difficult to get Peavey spares at the moment.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 6:18 pm
blckjck
I believe he's saying the passive crossovers on the active speakers are before the amplifiers. This placement keeps them from being effected by the heat generated with high wattages. This heat colors the sound. I have the PR12's which are very similar to the 1012's. If you do not use an external crossover to pull out the low end and let the speakers go full range, they will color over time with high volume.
As far as Class D amp's, I use them as well. I use the Crown XLS1000 for my PR12's and the Behringer EPQ2000 for my Yamaha SW218V Dual 18 subwoofer. The EPQ was purchased because my amp had died on the 3rd day of a 10 day live sound/dj event. The original amp was a large transformer amp from the late 70's. The EPQ has been able to keep up for the most part. It doesn't seem to have the punch I'm looking for with a kick drum. It hits, but doesn't seem to have the immediate peak.
That said, I still like the class D amps. I will be going for a larger Crown to power the sub on the next purchase.
As far as Active vs. Passive. I agree with Adion that they both have their place. For active speakers I have Mackie SRM-450's. I use these for most of my mobile work. I will be looking to add a single active sub to the mobile rig for the lower end that I notice missing. But, I get nothing but compliments on the quality of sound. A large number of the events want the volume turned down because of bass anyway. So, a sub isn't that high of a priority for that.
To be able to pull out my coffin case, run two XLR's, some power cables, and have sound is very nice. They are already tuned, limited, and protected. Just plug in and go. This is good to have for most mobile work. Live sound however, I like my passive gear. Although, truly, I run a mix. Passive for FOH, and active for monitors.
As far as Class D amp's, I use them as well. I use the Crown XLS1000 for my PR12's and the Behringer EPQ2000 for my Yamaha SW218V Dual 18 subwoofer. The EPQ was purchased because my amp had died on the 3rd day of a 10 day live sound/dj event. The original amp was a large transformer amp from the late 70's. The EPQ has been able to keep up for the most part. It doesn't seem to have the punch I'm looking for with a kick drum. It hits, but doesn't seem to have the immediate peak.
That said, I still like the class D amps. I will be going for a larger Crown to power the sub on the next purchase.
As far as Active vs. Passive. I agree with Adion that they both have their place. For active speakers I have Mackie SRM-450's. I use these for most of my mobile work. I will be looking to add a single active sub to the mobile rig for the lower end that I notice missing. But, I get nothing but compliments on the quality of sound. A large number of the events want the volume turned down because of bass anyway. So, a sub isn't that high of a priority for that.
To be able to pull out my coffin case, run two XLR's, some power cables, and have sound is very nice. They are already tuned, limited, and protected. Just plug in and go. This is good to have for most mobile work. Live sound however, I like my passive gear. Although, truly, I run a mix. Passive for FOH, and active for monitors.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 6:23 pm
VDJ Ron
An interesting feature of class d amplifiers is that their highly efficient (90%) which means little heat is generated, and hence there is no need for large heat sinks, and big fans.
Speaker coils still generate lots of heat.
I'm still confused.
Correction, I'm being stupid.
Thanks blckjck.
One problem with Behringer is their rejection of RMS power measurements. I'm a little worried by this, for example the Inuke 3000 has a claimed output (peak?) of 1500W per channel at 2 ohm. Many argue the true value is @1000W RMS. There is a Behringer brochure which states the RMS values, I've seen it, but it's not now on their website. This makes matching speakers, and amplifiers difficult.
I did the above in bold text to highlight that it may be very important to those thinking of buying an Inuke amplifier.
Speaker coils still generate lots of heat.
I'm still confused.
Correction, I'm being stupid.
Thanks blckjck.
One problem with Behringer is their rejection of RMS power measurements. I'm a little worried by this, for example the Inuke 3000 has a claimed output (peak?) of 1500W per channel at 2 ohm. Many argue the true value is @1000W RMS. There is a Behringer brochure which states the RMS values, I've seen it, but it's not now on their website. This makes matching speakers, and amplifiers difficult.
I did the above in bold text to highlight that it may be very important to those thinking of buying an Inuke amplifier.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 6:38 pm
kradcliffe
You tend to find the cheaper brands use peak, where the pro brands use RMS.
I used to be a big Peavey fan (and still have a full PA) however moving out of the UK was the final nail in their coffin.
Apparently, people in the know are telling me the Mackie gear is poor now manufacturing has moved to China, and they're buying RCF now.
I used to be a big Peavey fan (and still have a full PA) however moving out of the UK was the final nail in their coffin.
Apparently, people in the know are telling me the Mackie gear is poor now manufacturing has moved to China, and they're buying RCF now.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 7:07 pm
blckjck
kradcliffe wrote :
Apparently, people in the know are telling me the Mackie gear is poor now manufacturing has moved to China, and they're buying RCF now.
I know that was and issue with my model speaker specifically. The V1's were real good, then the V2's had thermal issues, I'm not so sure about the V3's. If I remember correctly, there was a component swap by the manufacturer that caused the speaker to think it was overheating to soon. I have all V1's, so I do not experience that. I have had no issues with their live sound mixers either.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 7:19 pm
blckjck
bigron1 wrote :
An interesting feature of class d amplifiers is that their highly efficient (90%) which means little heat is generated, and hence there is no need for large heat sinks, and big fans.
However, they do not have as large of capacitor banks and transformer coils to handle peak surges. So, if you get an amp that is closely rated to your speaker, you may find it doesn't quite punch as much during live sound. Mastered tracks are usually compressed so much you don't notice. Getting an amp that is 75% or larger then your rating can help to overcome this.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 7:23 pm
VDJ Ron
Another interesting point about the Inuke amplifier is that hi-fi buffs are buying them, and then replacing the noisy fan with a silent PC fan. It's quite valuable to these people, and their high quality sound.
@blckjck "Getting an amp that is 75% or larger then your rating can help to overcome this."
Hm.. the old fashioned class A/B rule book seems to be almost obsolete.
I hope I don't blow up too many speakers learning the new class D do's, and don'ts.
@blckjck "Getting an amp that is 75% or larger then your rating can help to overcome this."
Hm.. the old fashioned class A/B rule book seems to be almost obsolete.
I hope I don't blow up too many speakers learning the new class D do's, and don'ts.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 7:25 pm
blckjck
Wow, I can't believe I was typing that wrong. I use the Crown XLS1000 bridged for the sub and the EPQ stereo for the tops.
The Crown is listed as 1100W RMS bridged at 4ohms. The sub is rated at 1200W RMS. The EPQ is at 500W RMS 8ohm stereo. The PR-12s at 400w.
I apologize for any confusion there. I replaced the old amp with the Crown, which was running the Peaveys. I bought the EPQ because it was on the shelf locally and would run the Peavey's fine. The Crown was where I heard the lost punch. Stupid mental block.
Keep in mind that I am mixing two types of audio. Live sound and mastered/compressed music. Live sound should have quite a bit more amplification for the punches. So, the "old fashioned" rule that I am used to would still apply. The do's and don'ts also apply. This is where gain staging, crossover, and limiting come into play. My passive rig is all gain staged via measurements, not led indicators and such. Then is it peak limited so that nothing will hurt the speakers.
These things are already done in the active gear.
The Crown is listed as 1100W RMS bridged at 4ohms. The sub is rated at 1200W RMS. The EPQ is at 500W RMS 8ohm stereo. The PR-12s at 400w.
I apologize for any confusion there. I replaced the old amp with the Crown, which was running the Peaveys. I bought the EPQ because it was on the shelf locally and would run the Peavey's fine. The Crown was where I heard the lost punch. Stupid mental block.
Keep in mind that I am mixing two types of audio. Live sound and mastered/compressed music. Live sound should have quite a bit more amplification for the punches. So, the "old fashioned" rule that I am used to would still apply. The do's and don'ts also apply. This is where gain staging, crossover, and limiting come into play. My passive rig is all gain staged via measurements, not led indicators and such. Then is it peak limited so that nothing will hurt the speakers.
These things are already done in the active gear.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 8:03 pm
Stamat B
Mackie speakers have been withdrawn from sale from many dj's shops they had serious issues with stability, power ,burning issues etc.I still use peavey pro 15+pro15 bins very stable power never let me down!
I have heard RCF 15 700 watt speaker I can tell you they rock, if I ever sell my Peavey sound system would buy RCF What a power in this speaker and it's stable power to!
RCF speakers, all I can say Just crazy.
I have heard RCF 15 700 watt speaker I can tell you they rock, if I ever sell my Peavey sound system would buy RCF What a power in this speaker and it's stable power to!
RCF speakers, all I can say Just crazy.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 8:03 pm
blckjck
nicholas123 wrote :
Mackie speakers have been withdrawn from sale from many dj's shops they had serious issues with stability, power ,burning issues etc.I still use peavey pro 15+pro15 bins very stable power never let me down!
I have heard RCF 15 700 watt speaker I can tell you they rock, if I ever sell my Peavey sound system would buy RCF What a power in this speaker and it's stable power to!
RCF speakers, all I can say Just crazy.
I have heard RCF 15 700 watt speaker I can tell you they rock, if I ever sell my Peavey sound system would buy RCF What a power in this speaker and it's stable power to!
RCF speakers, all I can say Just crazy.
I would also wonder what models are being compared? Apples to oranges isn't quite fair. Are we talking about speakers in the same price point? There is a bit of a difference between the Mackie Thump, SRM, and HD series. The Peavey PR, Impulse, and DM series as well. So, it's only fair to compare those price points.
I would put my passive gear at an entry pro level point, and the Mackies SRM-450's at a low mid point.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 8:14 pm
Charlie Wilson
It can be fun experimenting with PA gear, but after all my testing I found it cheaper and easier to go active. A pair of RCF or FBT speakers for example are very well made and out perform peavey tops and bottoms. Certainly more reliable!
PS, I used PV for 6 years every weekend.
PS, I used PV for 6 years every weekend.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 8:48 pm
VDJ Ron
I've used the passive HySis, UL, and Impulse series of speakers for over 20 years. Reliability is down to how their treated, and perhaps worryingly related to the amplifiers driving the speakers. if the clip warning lights are respected a well matched Peavey passive speaker pair, and amplifier are close to 100% reliable.
I have never used the Peavey Pro range but have noted that they are very well rated on all the review sites such as ZzSounds, Amazon, Thomann ect.
My own Peavey sound quality has matched any artist, or band I have ever been paired alongside with the exception of Paul Carrack's (In the Living Year's) rig.
I may not be able to make such claims in the future, we shall see.
I have never used the Peavey Pro range but have noted that they are very well rated on all the review sites such as ZzSounds, Amazon, Thomann ect.
My own Peavey sound quality has matched any artist, or band I have ever been paired alongside with the exception of Paul Carrack's (In the Living Year's) rig.
I may not be able to make such claims in the future, we shall see.
Posted Wed 20 Jan 16 @ 9:15 pm
VDJ Ron
i received my Inuke 3000 this morning, and have started testing. I was a little stunned, I can lift it with my little finger, and it's very powerful.
It seemed like a square peg in a round hole, and It did not feel professional. However as time went by I started looking at in a different way to all my previous amplifiers. My latest idea is to just put it in a bag with a couple of suitable legs/ feet which attach to the rack mounting points, then I can use it as a laptop stand. Would it affect my laptop? I don't think there are any madly strong magnetic fields hanging around.
The idea that it might be possible to use a powerful amplifier as a laptop stand is mind blowing.
My current laptop stand has always been a kind of necessary evil.
All I need is two L shaped brackets, and 4 bolts with wing nuts plus one suitable bag.
Comments?
It seemed like a square peg in a round hole, and It did not feel professional. However as time went by I started looking at in a different way to all my previous amplifiers. My latest idea is to just put it in a bag with a couple of suitable legs/ feet which attach to the rack mounting points, then I can use it as a laptop stand. Would it affect my laptop? I don't think there are any madly strong magnetic fields hanging around.
The idea that it might be possible to use a powerful amplifier as a laptop stand is mind blowing.
My current laptop stand has always been a kind of necessary evil.
All I need is two L shaped brackets, and 4 bolts with wing nuts plus one suitable bag.
Comments?
Posted Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 2:49 pm
the SOUND INSURGENT
Ok this has been an interesting read because I know nothing about this stuff (imagine that, lmao).
Anyways I would like to know what your thoughts are on a B-52 Matrix 2500 system??
I have a chance to pick one up for dirt cheap but I have no clue when it comes to speakers.
Anyways I would like to know what your thoughts are on a B-52 Matrix 2500 system??
I have a chance to pick one up for dirt cheap but I have no clue when it comes to speakers.
Posted Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 3:28 pm
blckjck
beatbreaker1 wrote :
Ok this has been an interesting read because I know nothing about this stuff (imagine that, lmao).
Anyways I would like to know what your thoughts are on a B-52 Matrix 2500 system??
I have a chance to pick one up for dirt cheap but I have no clue when it comes to speakers.
Anyways I would like to know what your thoughts are on a B-52 Matrix 2500 system??
I have a chance to pick one up for dirt cheap but I have no clue when it comes to speakers.
What kind of events will you be wanting to do with it?
EDIT: An issue I see is there is no redundancy. If the amp goes out on the sub, it's all dead.
Posted Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 4:00 pm
VDJ Ron
My first thoughts are that the sub is three time the weight of a heavy class A/B amplifier, and big, so it would be hard to get it up a flight of stairs. It also contains a class G amplifier which is a little used type.
The power output in total, if it is RMS, is just about good enough, however if it's peak then it will struggle in a large venue.
Price is important.
It's a little experimental, and so could be the best thing since sliced bread, or a disaster in the making.
You need to find as many reviews as possible.
Another thought, if you get work like I do then you could be working in a very large venue one night, yet the next in a tiny place.
It's good to have a flexible PA system, therefore could the tops be used by themselves?
I would be very careful, and not rush into buying.
I'll keep looking around for information.
The power output in total, if it is RMS, is just about good enough, however if it's peak then it will struggle in a large venue.
Price is important.
It's a little experimental, and so could be the best thing since sliced bread, or a disaster in the making.
You need to find as many reviews as possible.
Another thought, if you get work like I do then you could be working in a very large venue one night, yet the next in a tiny place.
It's good to have a flexible PA system, therefore could the tops be used by themselves?
I would be very careful, and not rush into buying.
I'll keep looking around for information.
Posted Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 4:11 pm
blckjck
That sub does weigh almost as much as my double 18 sub. LOL
I'm not sure about them being experimental. They have been around for a little while now.
I've heard a few B-52 systems. They are not to bad. They hold up if you don't push them. But, I've seen a few with blown subs from being pushed to hard.
I'm not sure about them being experimental. They have been around for a little while now.
I've heard a few B-52 systems. They are not to bad. They hold up if you don't push them. But, I've seen a few with blown subs from being pushed to hard.
Posted Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 4:21 pm
